masthead lights - do we need them?

[oldvarnish]

I suppose the obvious answer is yes we do, because the higher the light the greater the distance at which you will be seen. So far, so good.

But small fishing boats (and mobos) have their lights much lower than masthead height, and we have no problem seeing them at sufficient range for us to get out of the way, which is what really matters.

I ask this because I am tearing hair out, yet again, to find that my Lopolight, which replaced a failed one, has also expired after less than 10 seconds use!

I don't go up masts, and I'm getting sick of asking (and paying) others to do it for me.

Working deck level lights, easily serviced and maintained, have got to be better than failed masthead ones, haven't they?

Does that bit of extra distance make all that much difference?

 

[Poignard]

I ask this because I am tearing hair out, yet again, ...

I can see you've been doing that from your photograph . .

 

[KellysEye]

It depends what weather you sail in, in any decent sea or swell or both lower deck lights disappear in the trough, which we have seen many times. In a long period, say ten seconds, swell the boat's lights disappears for 6 to 7 seconds.

 

[michael_w]

Don't buy "Scandinavian quality stuff". All you are doing is paying for the aforesaid Scandinavian worker's wages. My sectored LED tricolour bulb fitted into an old Aquasignal fitting has worked for years without complaint.

The most expensive is not necessarily the best.

 

[SimonD]

My Moody has never had a masthead tricolour if that's any comfort. Of course the lights disappear into troughs, but they are less likely to get lost against shore lights. I seem to remember an article in YM or PBO on the relative merits of each. I think the jury is still out.

 

[prv]

I seem to remember an article in YM or PBO on the relative merits of each. I think the jury is still out.

Neither is better overall, they're good for different situations.

I have a rotary nav-light knob which goes || OFF || SAIL LOW || SAIL HIGH || MOTOR LOW || MOTOR HIGH || ALL-ROUND WHITE ||. So I can choose what to show depending on the conditions.

(Motor High is bow bicolour and masthead all-round white, a permitted combination for sub-12m vessels like mine.)

For anchoring I have a hanging light above the foredeck, but since the white at the top of the mast was already there I thought I might as well keep the option. It's quick to turn on until I have the ball and lamp hoisted and plugged in.

Pete

 

[Daydream believer]

Neither is better overall, they're good for different situations.

I have a rotary nav-light knob which goes || OFF || SAIL LOW || SAIL HIGH || MOTOR LOW || MOTOR HIGH || ALL-ROUND WHITE ||. So I can choose what to show depending on the conditions.

(Motor High is bow bicolour and masthead all-round white, a permitted combination for sub-12m vessels like mine.)

For anchoring I have a hanging light above the foredeck, but since the white at the top of the mast was already there I thought I might as well keep the option. It's quick to turn on until I have the ball and lamp hoisted and plugged in.

Pete

That sounds good
Some pics & wiring diags would be welcomed

 

[SimonD]

(Motor High is bow bicolour and masthead all-round white, a permitted combination for sub-12m vessels like mine.)

It is permitted, but I can't see what advantage it confers. Following the general argument, in a swell, you get a constant white and an intermittent red/green. Against shore lights, the masthead risks getting lost, leaving only the red/green visible. I would also have thought a red/green bow light with what looked like an anchor light some 40 feet above them would be confusing (and I'm confused enough by lights).

 

[Seajet]

My boat is 6.7 metres, 22'.

I now have a masthead tricolour and guardrail level bi-colour port and starboard in front, a white stern light at the back.

The lower lights are mainly so as to be seen in marinas, close to when people aren't craning their necks to look up; the masthead triclolour tells people out in the open where I'm going and I doubt they care much if I'm sailing or motoring, the important thing is if they see me at all.

 

[LittleSister]

Working deck level lights, easily serviced and maintained, have got to be better than failed masthead ones, haven't they?

Of course they are, but so would working mast head lights be better than non-working deck level ones! The real issue is about the apparent unreliability of (at least some of) the LED mast head lights on the market.

I prefer to have both levels available, and to choose between the two according to conditions, and each providing a back-up to the other. I would be reluctant to fit an LED masthead light from the numerous complaints about more than one manufacturer I've heard on this forum.

One of the disadvantages, for me, of using deck level lights is the reflections/loom of the lights reducing visibility for those looking from the boat (perhaps more of an issue on small boats?).

 

[igytomas]

Our boat was originally fitted with deck lights. But while refitting it last year I added tricolour+anchor with LED bulbs on the mast plus steaming under the spreaders.
Now I have a choice. While under sails I use mast lights because power consumption is only 3.6W, when at an anchor it draws only 2.4W but when motoring or motor-sailing I can choose the deck lights. In this case power is not an issue even if it takes 40W only for the lights.
To make it easy I used single, tree-position switch ON-OFF-ON. One is for the mast and the other for the deck lights. Steaming has its own switch. All by the book and depends on the circumstances.

 

[prv]

It is permitted, but I can't see what advantage it confers. Following the general argument, in a swell, you get a constant white and an intermittent red/green. Against shore lights, the masthead risks getting lost, leaving only the red/green visible. I would also have thought a red/green bow light with what looked like an anchor light some 40 feet above them would be confusing (and I'm confused enough by lights).

To be honest I don't know how much I'll use that mode - it's partly just a case of "I could, so I did". But in the situation where the deck-level lights are disappearing behind the waves, better to see an unidentified white light than nothing at all. And I'm unlikely to select high lights against a well-lit shoreline.

Can't see why it should be confusing if both lights are visible. From aft you get a white light - stern light, vessel going away. From other angles you get red or green with a white above and aft of it - sidelight and masthead light, vessel crossing. There's nothing about a white light that "looks like an anchor light" - it's just a light.

Pete

 

[doraymefa]

One of the advantages of using expensive LED bulbs at the masthead is that you are more likely to turn them on (if they work). This is particularly relevant at anchor where the display of an anchor light is becoming increasingly rare.

 

[Seajet]

I must say in 40 odd years of sailing, a lot of it involving night arrivals and departures, I've never been bothered by glare from my own boat's lower nav lights, if anything I find their rather dim reflection at close quarters a guidance aid.

 

[prv]

I must say in 40 odd years of sailing, a lot of it involving night arrivals and departures, I've never been bothered by glare from my own boat's lower nav lights, if anything I find their rather dim reflection at close quarters a guidance aid.

It's certainly reassuring to be able to see a glimmer of reflected light and know that they're still working - but I have been on boats where the lights were poorly placed and reflected back from bits of the pulpit or even the jib, and this threw back enough light to interfere with lookout.

Pete

 

[prv]

That sounds good
Some pics & wiring diags would be welcomed

Just for you, I went down to the shed and dug out the scrap of paper I worked out the circuit on

Decided it was illegible, and quickly redrew it in Omnigraffle:

Current comes in to exactly one of the terminals at the bottom, from the rotary switch. The network of diodes sends it out of one or more of the terminals at the top, to light up the appropriate combination.

Quite a lot of the complexity is due to my dedicated windvane lamp - a dim LED projecting just enough light upwards to see the windvane from the cockpit. A lot of boats have a little 12v torch bulb up there and just wire it to the tricolour supply, but I want to be able to see the wind even if using the low sailing lights or if motoring but contemplating putting sails up, and I had a spare core in the wiring anyway. If the windvane lamp wasn't there, quite a lot of the circuit could be removed.

I have a 5-amp fuse on the circuit as whole, in case of a short in the run to the rotary switch in the cockpit, but I also have a 2-amp fuse (smallest readily available) on each of the output lines to the lamps. This ensures that a fault on one of them doesn't take out the whole system and I can just switch to another combination while I fix it (though if it's the bow bicolour gone and I'm motoring, I can't be strictly legal that way).

Mine is an all-LED system; if you insist on using Victorian coils of heated wire then you're going to need some fairly beefy diodes and the loss in them may make the whole exercise a poor tradeoff. Alternatively, run a low current through the switch and diodes and put a relay on each of the output terminals; that's probably what I'd do.

The circuit is assembled on a bit of veroboard, and potted in silicone. It has screw terminals for the lights, the six-core cable to and from the switch, and (not shown on the diagram above) a bank of negative terminals for the returns from the lights and a master positive and negative into the whole system.

The waterproof rotary switch is mounted on a small switch panel together with a few other switches (deck lights, windlass on/off, cockpit and foredeck power sockets on/off) with the different light combinations (SAIL HIGH, etc) engraved in the appropriate positions around it. This panel isn't actually installed yet (it will go on one of the cockpit pods I mentioned in another thread) - the switch has spent the last season poking though a spare bit of plastic at the chart table with a home-printed label around it. But it's proved that the system works.

Pete

 

[William_H]

Well I would like to reassuree Oldvarnish that deck level lights are fine. Indeed in my experience far more likely to be seen in inshore areas than mast head. With LED there is no need to persue the one bulb so lower current fix of mast head lights. Certainly any wiring upn the mast is more likely to fail but worse far more difficult to fix. So on my little have Pand S LED on the ide of the cabin. and stern light on the stern rail. I don't like bow rail lights as they can get damagedd easily ina small collision.
I don't use a mast head white light as I don't motor if i can help it and for the very small amount of night motoring I will just be ilegal. However white portable light hoisted up a halyard or even taped to the front of the mast would serve. Either as under power light, anchor light or just a look out for me light. So with a stern rail mounted VHF antenna I have no mast wiring so life is a lot easier. good luck olewill

 

[Uricanejack]

Yes.

Mine has quit working at the moment. On my to do list but like the OP I'm not enthusiastic about going up masts.

Of course my mast head light is not at the top of my mast just about 1/4 or a 1/3rd. High enough I can't reach the dam thing.
contemplating sticking a spare part way up my pole for the scaner on my RADAR which doesnt scan.
All I need is 1 abaft of my sidelights at a greater hight than half my beam (11ft) so 6ft up should be fine and dandy.

 

[jdc]

The key thing about nav lights for a yacht is making sure that ships don't run one down. Any other considerations like "can another yacht see me some tens of minutes before it has to take any action at all?" or dipping behind swells are secondary. With this in mind, I think that masthead tri-colour lights might be seen at longer range, but conversely ships are likely to judge that a close one is still far away since it will bem: (i) faint, (ii) probably unaccompanied by a strong radar signal and (iii) on the horizon. This last point is really important: if an OoW sees a light below the horizon he knows it's close and he has to take care of it, period. Putting a light at the top of a pole about the same height as a bridge (ie masthead) is absolutely the worst thing from this aspect.

So imho it's much better in crowded waters and/or close inshore when there's any shipping about to use the deck level lights. I am not alone in holding this view, indeed in one of my old (1998) almanacks says in the seamanship section "If you want to stay alive in crowded waters, use the deck level [navigation] lights". I wonder if the tragedy of the Ouzo had something to do with this effect; ie whatever ran them down didn't realise they were so close, instead seeing the light but thought it 10 or more miles away.

However I'd still fix my masthead light! I went back to ordinary incandescent ones after a bad experience with a LED.

 

[xeitosaphil]

Quote : (Motor High is bow bicolour and masthead all-round white, a permitted combination for sub-12m vessels like mine.)

Pete does this Motor High switch setting on rotary switch also illuminate the all round white as well?

My understanding right or wrong, is the 360 Degree white is only used for an anchour light? or for vessels under 7mtrs in length. A normal Tricolour light would be Port Star/brd and Stern light, normal light sectors.

I thought a normal Bow Bicolour set up, would be used with a white Steaming and Stern light with normal light sectors, not 360 all-round white, or did I read this account wrongly - or have I got it wrong?