Mast position

[oldmanofthehills]

I am sorry that I did not recall your post on the LM Forum, and that you felt the contributors all viewed LMs through rose tinted spectacles. In my experience they are not blind to the LM's faults, but forgive them as being minor weaknesses in an overall great package. I don't know how much sailing the average LM owner does, but I do know there are certainly keen sailors among them.

It does seem your experience of weather helm is unusual. I have just done an Google advanced search for threads on that forum which mention rudders, and of the handful it found only one was specifically about weather helm and that dated back to 2014. In that case the enquirer's lack of battens in his mainsail was suspected as the root of his problem, as others said they did not experience this issue and spoke of controlling the tiller with two fingers. Having looked again at a few videos of LM27s and LM24s under sail, they generally seem to be sailing with the tiller no more than about 10 degrees from the centreline and putting no particular strain on the helmsman's hand.

Other posts about rudders did mention 'Becker rudders'. I didn't know what they were when I had previously read them, but apparently they are the articulated rudders shown in Laminar Flow's pictures above. Someone also mentioned being aware of a couple of people in Denmark having extended their rudders upwards and slightly forwards, as shown in these pics:
View attachment 88313

View attachment 88314

p.s. I've just checked your account on the LM forum, and as far as I can see you've only ever made 5 posts on that forum, none of which mentioned weather helm!

I gave mostly up on LM Forum because this YBW Forum is more fun and more informative. The solutions for an LM issue might well be the same for other similar craft. I dont want a Motor Sailers Sub Forum

When I said weather helm, mostly it is that in F5 the tiller is at about 20 or 25 degrees to straight so the Simrad tiller Pilot runs out of movement if set up for equal thrust, and can be jolted into the dead zone in chop in F4. In F5+ to F6 weather helm more tiring but not as mad as my old MacWester 26. Fitting bowsprit was reccommended cure for that though previous owner had locked the plate rudder and put a stern hung rudder with bigger area instead. My posts were conflating two separate issues

 

[LittleSister]

I gave mostly up on LM Forum because this YBW Forum is more fun and more informative. The solutions for an LM issue might well be the same for other similar craft. I dont want a Motor Sailers Sub Forum

When I said weather helm, mostly it is that in F5 the tiller is at about 20 or 25 degrees to straight so the Simrad tiller Pilot runs out of movement if set up for equal thrust, and can be jolted into the dead zone in chop in F4. In F5+ to F6 weather helm more tiring but not as mad as my old MacWester 26. Fitting bowsprit was reccommended cure for that though previous owner had locked the plate rudder and put a stern hung rudder with bigger area instead. My posts were conflating two separate issues

If the LM Owners' Forum is not to your taste, then so be it, but please don't come on here suggesting that that you were unable to get helpful advice or recognition of the LM's characteristics on there.

You posted only 5 posts on that Forum, on two different threads, all within 6 days of one another about 18 months ago. At no point did you mention either weather helm or rudder size issues on that forum. In both threads you got detailed helpful responses from other posters to your queries.

You seem to be almost alone among LM27 owners in suffering severe weather helm, so I suspect the cause lies in something particular to your boat's set up (as seemed to be the case in the single reference on that forum to such an issue, back in 2014).

 

[oldmanofthehills]

If the LM Owners' Forum is not to your taste, then so be it, but please don't come on here suggesting that that you were unable to get helpful advice or recognition of the LM's characteristics on there.

You posted only 5 posts on that Forum, on two different threads, all within 6 days of one another about 18 months ago. At no point did you mention either weather helm or rudder size issues on that forum. In both threads you got detailed helpful responses from other posters to your queries.

You seem to be almost alone among LM27 owners in suffering severe weather helm, so I suspect the cause lies in something particular to your boat's set up (as seemed to be the case in the single reference on that forum to such an issue, back in 2014).

Some of the response from the LM forum was good, others complete bollocks and denied that I had seen what I had seen. You are doing the same, and keep banging on about whether or not I posted in this forum or that - which is quite irrelevant really. I hope thats not an affliction of owning an LM too long.

My LM seems set up with mast about upright and nothing visually unusual. As an engineer I will work to my solutions and seek advise from those who can give helpful suggestion, rather than claim the problem does not exist.

 

[LittleSister]

Some of the response from the LM forum was good, others complete bollocks and denied that I had seen what I had seen.

Your memory is playing tricks on you. I've specifically checked just now, and no-one denied anything you said you had seen, and all the responses you received seem to me well informed and helpful.

Others can judge for themselves:
Self draining cockpit | LM Owners
Self draining cockpit | LM Owners
LM27 rolling like a pig | LM Owners

I am unsurprised you didn't get help with your weather helm, as you never asked about or even mentioned it!

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Your memory is playing tricks on you. I've specifically checked just now, and no-one denied anything you said you had seen, and all the responses you received seem to me well informed and helpful.

Others can judge for themselves:
Self draining cockpit | LM Owners
Self draining cockpit | LM Owners
LM27 rolling like a pig | LM Owners

I am unsurprised you didn't get help with your weather helm, as you never asked about or even mentioned it!/QUOTE]

I never really said I got no advise on weather helm. I said I got little useful advise. Thus started to look else where (and found YBW Forum) To be simple my recent posts on YBW were not in detail about LM Owners forum or contents ( sorry you got confused) as I am more interested in improving our boats not reforming some owners forum.

 

[LittleSister]

OldMan, you can't keep your story straight from one day to the next, but are content to slag off people who have put themselves out to help you, and that you even thanked at the time!

Well as my LM has weather helm such that tiller pilot has to use multiple stern pivot positions on different tacks . . .

I have not noticed any particular problems of weather helm or insufficient rudder area for sailing on my LM27, nor can I recall any mention of such issues on the (UK) LM Owners forum.

I mentioned it on the LM Forum. Singularly useless . . .

I am unsurprised you didn't get help with your weather helm, as you never asked about or even mentioned it!

I never really said I got no advise on weather helm. I said I got little useful advise.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

OldMan, you can't keep your story straight from one day to the next, but are content to slag off people who have put themselves out to help you, and that you even thanked at the time!

Who cares if I didnt remember which forum I asked and got little useful information from? The point was i got little information exept here on YBW which indeed has proved most useful. YBW Good

Are you so set on defending the LM Forum that you cant actually focus on anything else?

If you represent the LM Forum it sinks even further in my ratings

 

[Laminar Flow]

Who cares if I didnt remember which forum I asked and got little useful information from? The point was i got little information exept here on YBW which indeed has proved most useful. YBW Good

Are you so set on defending the LM Forum that you cant actually focus on anything else?

If you represent the LM Forum it sinks even further in my ratings

Shame this, I actually thought this thread was going somewhere; an interesting exchange from motorsailor to motorsailor.
In just 45 posts it went from mast position to slag fest; Lounge-worthy.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I too regret the move from technical to raking over past history.

I just need to take that technical stuff with me in my head, and sometime in future escape from our Lockdown Forum to tinker with bits of metal plate/ bowsprit and sail. PS I have found I can get PBO single electronic issue on Amazon so look forward to April issue, though I note even March issue not available yet