Mast head rigs, can some one please convince me

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ifoxwell

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I come from a dinghy background and as such I understand fractional rigs. I like the mast control that they give, and the balance of a boat with a small foresail, large main.

I don't like masts that need baby stays and runners and yet they still seem better than static rigging that doesn't give you any means of control. And I certainly don't like huge genoas which require lots of rope pulling and winching to get in. I sail largely single handed on a river and they just dont seem to lend themselves to short tacking out of the tide.

Yet if I discount masthead rigs I seem to be discounting a lot of other wise nice boats so what am I missing, can some one please convince me that they're not all bad?

Cheers

Ian
 
Masthead rigs are driven partly by rating rules from the past which did not penalise large genoas - hence the monsters from the 1970's and 80's. with huge foretriangles and skinny mains. Allows big spinnakers as well.

For cruising boats where tweaking is less important a mast head rig is generally easier to stay securely and is generally more stable, so much valued by sailors where strength and security is more important than squeezing performance under sail.

You can get good handling boats with either type of rig, but for obvious reasons, fractional rigs have become more popular again both for performance sailors and for those cruising sailors who sail short handed.
 
All the above... Plus you can consider that single-handed short tacking is more a cruising exercise than racing, in most cases. Those who regularly have to tack up a river but have chosen a masthead rig will often favour a self-tacking headsail, as close to 100% foretriangle size as can be fitted. If you go that route, tacking is simply a matter of putting the helm down - no ropes to haul except perhaps the mainsheet traveller.

Rob.
 
I agree about a big main

which is why Katie L - with her gunter rig is a real treat to sail

the mast is far forward, the mainsail is massive and she will happily beat under main alone

maybe there is a film somewhere of a bloke sailing just such a rig up a river somewhere

However, something Like a Fox 22 has got to be the next best thing.

Having said that I do like the security of a masthead rig

it would take a lot to dismast a Centaur

D
 
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I agree with Tranona.

I sail mostly single-handed and my three boats-with-a-lid have all been mast-head rig. The Genoa on the present Centurion 32 seems enormous when compared with the one on my previous boat (Centaur). Although it is some 35 sq.m. in area, tacking is not such a problem if handled - and timed - well. Winching the sheets is only done for the last bit and hauling the sheet hand-over-hand before that is not a problem. However, I still wish I had self-tailers like I had installed on the Centaur.
I don't know about the problems of rivers; we don't have them here.

P.S. Unlike the Centaur, the Centurion 32 does not have a baby-stay. In fact I was planning to replace the one on the Centaur and installing two forward lowers before I sold her. That would have prevented the occasional snagging of the clew against the baby stay when tacking.
 
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I sail a Westerly Fulmar, which is ¾ rigged. In the past I sailed mainly masthead rigged boats and dinghies.

You will soon realise yacht masts are not as flexible as a dinghy mast as the mast sections are stiffer unless you have a racing mast. Also the loadings on the rig are far greater than any dinghy as the power is required to drive a much heavier boat.

Once set up a masthead rig is easy to sail, an excellent idea of armchair sailing. Sailing a ¾ rig is very similar and rarely needs any tweaking. Why? In a dinghy you are sailing for only a short period of time, but on a yacht this extends to all day or longer. You need more stamina for yacht sailing, especially if racing, as everything will be far more powerful than any dinghy.

All yacht sails are easily adjusted as the controls can be numerous, and you can walk around to see the sail set from different angles - something you cannot do on a dinghy.

The best advice I can suggest is to try sailing on a masthead and a ¾ rig yacht. Then you will see the difference for yourself. Then you will realise that other factors about yachts come into the equation like accomodation, comfort in the cockpit, anchoring, navigation, eletronics, etc.

Have fun on a yacht.
 
Fractional rigs were rarely seen on cruising boats in the '60s-'80s, probably for several reasons. The main factor was probably simplicity and cheapness. Sail handling gear was less developed, and it was easier to change jibs, or later, furl jibs than to deal with a large main without slab reefing. Additionally, a masthead rig carries more sail area lower down, and as boats were narrower,they were less capable of carrying sail, and most were under-canvassed by today's standard.

In between these older boats and today's, there are excellent boats like the Starlights, which would probably have fractional rigs if they had been produced later. I certainly wouldn't rule out a masthead rig for cruising, in fact, some of the advantages could still be relevant even if they can't compete with newer boats for absolute speed.
 
Of course a masthead is not all bad, you still have halyard, vang, outhaul, cuningham (downhaul), traveller and flattener if you want to tweak. Also rig tension is still critical for the best performance as suboptimal rig tension is an inefficient rig. If cruising a good roller reefing head sail will help with performance, barber haulers for the genoa clew position and fairlead angle will all help to optimise drive. Just because the rig is fixed does not mean that the sail drive can't be optimised. I think you are limiting yourself if you exclude masthead rigs.
 
An advantage of a very large genoa (Sadler29) is that very often I don't even bother to take the cover off the (small) main. Now that really saves effort when you are single-handed . You often get strange looks though from other boats ....especially if you are overtaking them. Of course, I always plan to sail with the wind abaft the beam :D
 
VicMallows said:
An advantage of a very large genoa (Sadler29) is that very often I don't even bother to take the cover off the (small) main. Now that really saves effort when you are single-handed . You often get strange looks though from other boats ....especially if you are overtaking them. Of course, I always plan to sail with the wind abaft the beam :D
Click to expand...

Big +1. We sometimes went for days sailing on Genoa only with the mainsail cover on. We could beat to windward if necessary, and rarely materially slower downwind than with both sails up and avoids any worries about gybes.
Also many boats with small jibs (especially the self tackers) are slow downwind unless rig up an asymmetric - which overall is more hassle in my book than tacking a genoa.
 
+2 Echos my experience with a masthead Benny 305 (150% genny) which I regularly short tacked singlehanded under headsail alone. My current boat has a 9/10 fractional but doesn't perform as well under either single sail.
 
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Daydream believer said:
Folkboats, Stellas shall we go on?
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Folk boat was 1942 a long time before 1960.

Fractional rigs with self tacking jibs were common in 30 and 40 possibly before. Rating rules encouraged mast head in 60s as well as the fact they are low cost and simple

Also a lot of yacht sailors point and go without any trimming or playing with the controls
 
Daydream believer said:
Folkboats, Stellas shall we go on?
Click to expand...

But they date from a previous era when masthead rigs were uncommon are almost all bermudan rigs were what we would call today fractional. Cruising boats were more likely to be gaff rigged. Mast head rigs only became popular in the 1970s when the IOR came in which favoured large headsails and then migrated to smaller cruising boats.
 
OP has said that he sails on a river with a lot of tacking. So certainly a fractional rig with smaller jib so easier to pull in and no baby or intermediate forestay will be hugely advantageous. Adjustable backstay and intermediate side stays will also help with sail adjustment. However if OP is looking for a keel boat in moving from dinghies then mast head rig boats should not be completely discounted. You can remove the baby forestay in conditions of light winds and low forestay loadings providing you are clever enough to reconnect it when wind comes up. You can also sacrifice performance by using a smaller jib so making tacking easier.
Although not seen I wonder why aft swept spreaders and aft of abeam the mast chain plates are not fitted to mast head rig boats. This would allow baby forestay to be permanently removed.
But for all that I love my fractional rig. olewill
 
I'm a retired dinghy racer and have a masthead rig and frankly I love it.

As someone already pointed out the big overlap was a way of having extra unmeasured sail area back in the day (IOR) and as usually happens the cruising boatsat the time tended to go that way because of fashion.
The newer rules favoring frac rigs resulted in the racers using them and guess what, the cruising boats rigs followed the fashion.

With the frac rig the static tension is considerably more than a masthead and that loading is imparted into the boat and deck, over time the lighter built boats start to show it.

As far as sail plan is concerned, well unless you need to follow a strict one design rule the sizes are up to you.
So using dinghy classes as an example.
Sailing up a river in something like a Merlin or RS400 you'll out tack a Osprey or 505 which in turn will out tack a Flying Dutchman.
On open water the results will be reversed.
The point being the rig, frac or masthead, makes little difference, what makes the difference is matching the sail plan to the sort of sailing you do.

My old masthead rig using a blade jib is easily a match in a tacking duel up the Qrwell against most modern frac boats of the same length.
 
Thanks for all the great replies people, very informative although I'm not sure I'm sold on mast head rigs yet.

To add a little more detail, although I consider myself a dinghy sailor we have had a Beneteau 32s5 and a Jeanneau Sunfast 32i in the past and we currently sail a Red fox. I also spend time on my father in laws Victoria 34, which has contributed to my dislike of mast head rigs.

I, like I expect many of us, dont get to spend any thing like as much time sailing as I would like, hence it often ends up being just a couple of hours sailing down river to drop anchor with the family or joining in with the Wednesday night club racing.... and so I like to get as much enjoyment out of the act of sailing as I can.

So when i say short tacking up the river, I mean a tack once a minute or sooner.... Ive tried doing this in my father in laws Victoria and after 20 min was knackered... and that was with two of us doing it on my own doesn't bear thinking about were as the Sunfast was a real joy to sail in the same situation.
 
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