Marine Autoroute

[tim]

Dear All,

I'm currently studying for an MSc and for my thesis I am producing a Web application that is the marine version of AA Autoroute. I need to seek feedback on whether or not the maritime community would find such a facility useful, and so would welcome your comments. The application works thus: -

The PBO Small Craft Almanac publishes tables of waypoints, and diagrams linking waypoint to waypoints. These waypoints and links are in effect a web of routes and as such, with appropriate technology, can be searched and traversed by a computer to identify the shortest route between waypoints.

I have produced an application which allows a user to enter a start location and an end location. The application will then return a list of all the waypoints (as given in the almanac), including the lat and long, and write the list out to a file for importing as a route into a GPS.

However, I have also developed the application to allow for the fact that you might wish to travel to a location where the waypoints are published in a different Web-based almanac. For example, say you wanted to travel from Wicklow in Ireland, to Corisca in the Med. The application will open the web almanacs for Ireland, UK, Spain, Portugal and Italy, and then return the appropriate waypoints to you.

Of course, some of the work is theoretical (but I have proven it to work), and I cannot publish my work (yet) on the Web because the waypoints are the property of PBO (whom I have attempted to contact but they have not responded). However, I would welcome your opinion on the usefulness of the application and any ideas you think enhance it e.g. adding a 'via' facility (which is already in the pipeline).

Many thanks,

Tim

p.s. I'll also post this on Scuttlebut

 

[ccscott49]

Not a bad idea. But long journeys are normally done in legs, which are not difficult to plan anyway. But may well be a useful planning tool.

 

[johna]

Tim
In my opinion the last thing we need is more automated navigation.

Reference to waypoints only could be misleading as waypoints either side of a peninsula or promontory for example would need very careful computer manipulation to ensure the route stayed off the land. Also to be of any use as a planning tool tidal information would need to be incorporated.

There are already many programs available that enable this type of planning with user selected waypoints rather than those listed. Look at www.neptune-navigation.com as an example.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

I have to say i tend to agree
also way points chosen by people will vary depending on which direction they are coming from plus you have to double check them all anyway if they are imported ( or i would)

some people like lots right up to harbour wall others want to rely on GPS only as back up to chart.

what about contigencies for bad weather??? mmm am not sure you could make this pay


Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[yachtbits]

Nice idea but...

It would be a good idea to provide the RNLI with copies of this application. They will then know exactly where to look when they start getting reports of colisions due to everybody using exactly the same waypoints!!!

Autoroute works because we all know we all use the same roads and don't have autopilots, galleys and heads in our cars.

How about this for an application instead?

PC based Radar/Chartplotter using Raymarine Scanners & C-map. Yes you'll need an interface box, but the advantages are vast.

can I have sole UK distributorship once you've made it!

kev

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtbits.co.uk>http://www.yachtbits.co.uk</A>
sales@yachtbits.co.uk
marine electrics & electronics

 

[halcyon]

Re: Nice idea but...

Stikes a cord in my memory, back in 1987 I was looking for a electronics designer for marine equipment, so went to Camborne College and spoke to there HND boys.
What I said I wanted was some who wanted to develope the next generation equipment, what you were going to have was a tele screen built into the chart table, all your charts were on a CD, SATNAV would plot your position, and a interface to your radar would put all the other ships with there tracks on the screen.
What did I get, a room full of blank faces, just think if just one had shown that spark, you could have had it all years ago, and I would be down the Med with my feet up.
The one hope I have is that they have not caught up with the initial idea fully, and I have generation two /forums/images/icons/smile.gif now that is something else.

Brian

 

[MapisM]

Not sure about what you suggest...

PC chartplotter applications capable of reading C-map charts, there are some around already.
If I understood correctly, on top of that, you'd like to have a direct interface between the radome and the PC, feeding a software capable of generating the radar image.

If that is what you meant, there aren't such big advantages IMHO:
- save the money of the radar screen, and rely entirely on the PC? No, thanks - I'd rather leave the PC at home. Unless of course we consider dedicated, highly reliable PCs and monitors, specifically designed for marine usage. But then, any saving is lost.
- overlapping the radar image with the charts? Having spent some time at a fair, looking at some combined radar/chartplotter systems, I will happily leave with two separate screens for the rest of my boating life. Again there are exceptions: I did see a system with a 25' colour screen in which the radar image overlapped with the chart was excellent. But its price was... well, probably it was OK, if seen with the eyes of someone whose boat can host similar screens in the pilothouse...
- anything else which I didn't think of ? Or possibly did you mean something different?

 

[byron]

Tim, I think the idea has much merit with a reservation. How does one trust the Waypoints? Having seen so many mistakes over the years in Almanacs I never trust them. Collision? Naah! No more than using Auto Route and driving across a busy junction without looking.

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<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.freeware.mcmail.com/435.htm>http://www.freeware.mcmail.com/435.htm</A>[/b]

 

[chas]

I already use normal autoroute for outline planning - it can easily give you distances with its measuring tool and seems to go quite a long way (Azores for instance). I can see an application for this type of route planning - you can even transfer positions to charts using lat & long - as opposed to navigation but I, for one, would prefer to navigate on charts.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by chas on 01/11/2002 13:26 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[MapisM]

There was another thread in this forum on a similar subject ("auto route finder", 18/7/2002).

The way I see it, since the advent of object-oriented vector charts, there should be no reason to use waypoint databases at all. In fact, each and every detail that is necessary to create a route (let's forget tides and weather conditions for a while) is already in there.

As an example, suppose to trace a route from Zadar to Vis, in Croatia - almost 80 miles, with (beautiful BTW) islands all around.
Nowadays, the easier procedure (with a PC or a chartplotter) is to draw a straight line from the departure to the arrival, and then adjust it in between.
Once drawn this line, you realize that there are two completely different alternative routes, but it's very hard to understand which is shorter. Therefore, you draw both, and finally discover that the length is very similar, and decide based on different criterias...
Of course it took some time to arrive at that conclusion - actually a lot of time if you do it on paper charts.
Not too bad, if you are just laying around and enjoing your holiday, but occasionally you might just want quick results without bothering with the math. Isn't that what computers are all about?

Now, your application could trace those routes automatically, based on waypoint databases.
Which is fine, but the bathimetric data, forbidden areas, etc. are all already stored in modern electronic charts.
Why shouldn't a software be able to calculate a route just based on those data, without the need for any waypoint?
Or, if you want to put it that way, why shouldn't it be able to define all the necessary waypoints itself, in real time?
This way, the SW could calculate any route, from any point to any other point, regardless of the availability of pre-defined waypoints. It would just need the electronic charts, which in most cases the sailor is already using anyway.

 

[tim]

Trusting waypoints is an issue I discuss in my thesis. I argue that if the waypoints come from a reputable source then perhaps more people might trust them. However, it does beg the question of why PBO bother to print them at all.

 

[rhinorhino]

When it comes to way pionts there is NO reputable source. I have found errors in ever source I have used.
IMO it is highly negligent to take WPs from any source without plotting them onto a chart (either paper or electronic) first.
Now as suggesteed above a fully intelligent route planner, which took into account wind, tide, boat characteristics, hazards etc etc would be useful.
Having said that there are days i just turn off all the toys and do it the old fashioned way.