Manhattan 50 v T60

[Snazzy]

Thinking ahead to late 2006 / early 2007 we are thinking of these 2.
Similar money gets you...
Man 50, 2 x VP D9, Length 16m, Beam 4.6m.
T 60, 2 X Cat 810hp, Length 18m, Beam 4.9m.
Both have full beam master cabin and VIP guest cabin.
Third cabin not important to ourselves however available is, T60 twin cabin - M50 bunks.
Man 50 has the looks IMHO. T60 has the room.
We could live quiet happily with the different saloon / galley layout on these two.
With the T60 you get a door to starboard side deck and extending cockpit system.
With Man 50 you get better quality (IMH0) and full loaded spec.
The only gripes (for me) are...
Man 50 - can't see stern from flybridge helm. Head room over bed in master cabin.
T 60 - loose furniture.
Question, why pay same money for 50ft? Which will sell quicker after 4 years use? Will the IPS question come into play by 2006/2007?

I would very much welcome opinions from the forum.

Also, we have looked at Azimut, fairline and Princess but have narrowed it down to these two.

 

[gcwhite]

1 the good news is that the Manhattan 50 has D12 s not D9s.

2 the T 60 is at least £150k more ( it is a bigger boat)

3 Sunseeker have a much better resale value. Most Sealines are traded in for a bigger Sealine (not possible here). If you try to trade in a Sealine against any other make then you will see the true value whereas Fairline and Sunseeker generally hold their value in any situation. Many owners are trapped once they buy a Sealine because they can't break free without taking a large loss. ( The smaller Sealines aren't so bad because their value relative to a Fairline, Princess or Sunseeker is so small but the bigger you get the more difficult it becomes.)

4 Sunseeker are far better boats in design, quality, after sales, construction and style. Its like comparing a Ford to a Bently. You will be the envy of the Marina with a Sunseeker.

5 Sunseeker have announced a Manhattan 60

6 IPS wont be an issue on boats of this size for at least 3 years if ever.

7 Sunseeker seakeeping will probably be much better

8 The stern view can be addressed with Raymarine video cameras available on the E series plotter.

 

[Gludy]

The E series takes 4 video inputs and it is very handy becasue you can see the image on a 12 inch full daylight colour screen BUT the video inputs is only to one unit - it cannot be distributed - so I am thinking of feeding it to a small video amp and then taking 2 feeds out of the amp to both the lower and upper helm E sries box.

Yopu can get camera for the stern and double one for each side that have a fore and aft view - you can also get a switch to switch the video feed if over the 4 camara input.

 

[mjf]

I too like the M50.

Agree the stern docking view is awful as are the cockpit covers which mean the rear bench is unusable in the UK in Winter.... this can be fixed I understand.

Furuno can also display TV on its monitors (e/r camera and docking view etc)

Sunseeker clearly listen as I could not understand why the orginal boats did not have the ports on both sides in the owners suite - now they have and the boat is much better for it. I still reckon it looks and is a bit top heavy. Must be a sod to manouver in gusty conditions.

 

[gcwhite]

Cockpit covers have now been moved back on the latest models so making the cockpit fully usable in bad weather.
Actually it is quite a beamy boat (wider than the 56) and I don't think she looks top heavy when on the water. (see the video on the Sunseeker web site)

She is quite heavy 22tons at half load so sits firmly on the water even in a windy marina. I have had a sea trial and deliberately chose a rough day I was very pleased with the sea keeping and handling. The steering is like a sports boat. Top speed with the Volvo D12s was 34Kts.

 

[jfm]

Are you sure thay are the same money? I would have thort the sealine is more expensive?

I wouldn't touch the Sealine. Imho it is badly assembled, has some truly awful design details, lousy bathrooms, etc (see LIBS posts). A real lemon of a design, imho. Also I think it will be very difficult to sell on because the pool of people who combine the ability to spend £700k on a toy with an inability to see the nasty bits (printed wood grain on the flybr table, horrid bathrooms, painted metal ceiling handrails in saloon like you get on a bus, etc) is pretty small. Ask how many have been sold since the model was launched - it's less than one a month whereas direct competitor Sq58 sells 2 a month and sold out till Spring 06

The Hattan 50 and 60 are fine boats imho. High quality build and materials. I wouldn't worry at all about rear visibility. You dont need it. We have a big overhang at the rear of our Sq58 so cannot see the transom area at all from the flybr helm, but it's no problem even stern-to mooring. Docking is carried out at 0.5knot type speeds or less, you can walk around. You can also get extra throttle/thrusters controls installed easily (we have a set in the aft cockpit) and also you can get them on a wander lead nowadays.

Third cabin might be omportant at resale time.

D12s are excellent engines imho. There should be an 800hp version mid summer 2005. The Cats are fine too as far as I hear, though beware that the 800hp Cats (dunno if the same motor as the 810) seem to have noisier exhausts than the D12s

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The T60 is too much money for a Sealine - the brand does'nt stretch this far IMHO, not yet anyway. We were very impressed by the M50 at LIBS as well but thought it a little pricey relative to other 50 footers although the full width master cabin was a real surprise and worth a few bob extra
What I do take issue with is the Sealine v Sunseeker quality issue. Personally I dont think that Sunseekers are that well built, certainly no better than the average. Sure they're glitzy but I've seen a few secondhand ones that looked v tatty after a few years. Having said that I think the M50 is unique enough to command a good resale value
I do think that IPS is an issue for the M50. Firstly, with the M50 having V-drives already, there will be very little re-engineering involved to fit IPS and, second, Volvo have to introduce IPS across their whole range of engines in time otherwise their most powerful IPS engine will always be taking sales from the next non IPS engine in the range. My guess is that you'll see a 500hp IPS engine at LIBS 2006 which would slot into the M50 nicely and give similar performance to the 700hp shaftdrive version

 

[gcwhite]

I know it is surprising since the engines are so far back but the Manhattan 50 isn't V drive. And by the way on my sea trial I was very pleased with how little trim there was on the plane she is almost horizontal in the water. The visability from the lower helm at 25kts was exemplory.

I have examined Sunseekers in great detail and I am extremely impressed with the build quality. Everthing is oversized, all the materials are of the best quality, no cost cutting. I recently visited the electronics dept,for example, and observed them wiring distribution boxes. each connection was given an extra loop of wire just in case it ever needed to be cut and reconnected. I have never seen such focus on this type of quality. The Sealine T52 displaces 17t with D 12's the Sunseeker M 50 with D12 s displaces 22t and yet the top speeds are 31 & 34 respectively. This tells me there is more material in a Sunseeker which gives me a touch more confidence in a heavy sea.
Sunseeker have no plans to introduce IPS in the foreseeable future so I am pretty sure LBS 2006 will be too soon to see IPS on a Sunseeker of this size.

 

[mjf]

Agree its a nice surprise to see no V drives on this. There is not much not to like about this boat on cursory inspection at boat shows.

What surprised me however is that I saw the boat at LIBS 2004 Jan on the day of the its introduction, liked it lots and got a price / delv time etc etc - then looked again in SIBS Sept 2004 but not as keen then. Last month (only 12 months after initial interest remember) I had another look at LIBS 2005 and the asking price has risen hugely. I do not have the figures to hand currently but 20% rings a bell.

Will look overnite and revert.

P.S. I am still not convinced by its looks when sitting on the water (and neither is Mrs mjf mores the point...)

 

[jfm]

[ QUOTE ]
What I do take issue with is the Sealine v Sunseeker quality issue. Personally I dont think that Sunseekers are that well built, certainly no better than the average. Sure they're glitzy but I've seen a few secondhand ones that looked v tatty after a few years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wd agree that sseeker not better built than say Fairline, Pearl etc. Though they do in some places use better marterials eg more alcantara and less pvc. And their engine rooms are generally decent. All of that is relative - in absolute terms I think sseeker arre well built

The T60 is however very poorly built and uses poor materials, in relative terms. "Flush" deck hatches that you trip over, nasty decor in bathrooms, printed woodgrain fablon finish on tables, the bus handhold rails, bits of trim substantially not lined up, etc. Apart from the bathrooms point which is subjective i spose, these are not "imho" items, they're fact and these defects just dont exist on Sseeker/fairline

 

[jfm]

Price rises

mjf your 20% wont be far out. I think most of the big manufs have raised list prices around 11-15% since Dec 2003. Theyre all sold out 12months forward, so who can blame em.....

 

[gcwhite]

Yes I agree Sunseeker, Princess and Fairline are all of similar quality it was a comparison with Sealine I was drawing.

The point re prices is correct; it has gone up by at least 20% over the last year.

It is interesting that the reviews in the boating mags don't seem to notice this. I remember when MBY declared that the F42/5 had the best flybridge when we all know it is the worst; half dedicated to sunbed and short little guard rails.
How they could award a prize for innovation to the T60 is hard to understand quoting the rear positioning of the galley and overlooking the Sunseeker 66 which had introduced this some two years prior, or perhaps my definition of innovation is wrong

 

[Wiggo]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember when MBY declared that the F42/5 had the best flybridge when we all know it is the worst; half dedicated to sunbed and short little guard rails.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm so glad I come here: I didn't know the 42/5 had the worst flybridge. I feel so stupid now, knowing that everone else already knew that. Doh!

 

[oldgit]

Somebody mention Sealine.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[jfm]

I think the "innovation" thing was aimed at the T60's full-on approach to rear galley. The hattan 64 had an aft galley but I think it had some sofas aft, whereas the T60 had a full saloon forward and the dining table is aft by the galley?

Imho, or possibly not imho, possibly just stating the bleedin obvious, innovation should only be applauded when it brings clear benefits. The T60 galley set up doesn't. Journos are, in general, not the best judges of this. Yes they get to ride on many boats, but they dont generally own boats in this size category nor do they live/entertain on them for extended periods. Nor, frankly, do T60 designers and builders. Only their customers do that, and they seem to be voting with their feet by not ordering many T60s. So that galley/saloon swaparound mallarky in the T60 isn't a great innovation.

If a house fit out firm came round to your house and said "tell you what EyeNo, we will rip out your kitchen and sitting room, and fit a kitchen in your sitting room and some sofas+ flat TV where the kitchen was! Howsabout that then?" You would say "Yeah well no thanks mate, see the kitch is there for a reason, cos its connected to the utility room and it just seems better there for lotsa reasons, so thanks but no thanks"

The innovations customers want on boats are not the saloon/kitchen swaparound. They want IPS, electronic diesels, the Sq58 quantum leap in flybr layout, the hardtops on sportscruisers, clever full beam owner cabins, and several other items I've probly forgotten - ooh yes small boat at-anchor stabilisation like Ferretti's. Etc. These are worthy of the title "innovation" (even if not everyone likes em all).

 

[Steve Clayton]

Re: Somebody mention Sealine.

OK, I'll mention Sealine.

There is a new Sealine brokerage just starting up in Javia (Xabia) - between Alicante and Valencia. PM me if anyone wants further details.

www.seraph-apartments.com

 

[oldgit]

Re: Somebody mention Sealine.

there was me going about my natural business trying to give Wiggo a virtual poke with my vitual stick while he was safely being virtually held down by some bigger boys and you go and post something sensible.

 

[Snazzy]

EyeNo - thanks for the reply. In response...
1. D12s eh - good stuff. I was told by dealer either D9 or Cat?. Our present boat has D6 310. Very smooth. reasonable on juice.
2. Have quotes - price difference Jan 2005 is 66K stg£. When the trade in is done, Sealine are better which reduces the difference even further. With D12s price of Man will be increased.
3. I will have to look at this more closely - maybe it will be easier to sell 60ft for 50ft price.
4. I tend to agree. The Sunseeker seems to be of better quality compared to the T60. I tend to think that both will have similar impact in the marina (maybe that's a bad thing).
5. Has to be too expensive for ourselves.
6. Don't fully agree with you on this point - time will tell.
7. I have no experience of either. This will probably be one of the most important selling issues to me as we plan cruising Irish Sea - Wales - Scotland - SW England.
8. Good point, also remote docking may be the answer.
To be honest, I tend to favour the Man 50, however the T60 price looks attractive ie a hell of a lot of boat for the money.
This will be a BIG decision for ourselves as we will be at the absolute max expenditure.
Thanks again.
Stuart.

 

[Roy]

If you can be patient, just wait until a t60 comes up in good second hand order with 150 - 200 k off it and that will be a good buy.

 

[Snazzy]

mjf - thank you also for the reply...
Remote docking - CCTV could be the answer.
Good point about the covers. I have fallen for this one already with current boat.
Boats dont look good at boatshows with covers in place and I swore that I will look at this more closely when the next purchase comes along.
I have to admit that I forget all about this when looking at the T60 & Man 50.
Agree about the master cabin ports - big improvement.
Stuart.