MAN engine knackered camshaft question

[tcm]

This is a bit PBOish cept that it concerns monster diesel engines, hence this is the best place i think.

Anyway, been down to the boat in soton after 3 weeks calming down at the prospect of it getting fixed costing 12 grand, and so-called 5-year Gold warranty only covering "major" engine parts like er the casing and crank against "manufacturing defects", hence not really very gold in my book. I'd call it "limited" warranty , not "Gold". Gold warranties should furnish me with a spare boat whilst this was being fixed, and another one if i smashed/sank that one as well, which one of our company car drivers did recently er, but that's another story. Suffice to say that the trip to the uk and back would've been cheaper if i had a bought a reasonable ferrari and chucked in a skip on my return ...but anyway.

The starboard engine started getting a bit smoky. Then, in august at cowes, it got really very smoky indeed.

So, i drove it to saxon wharf near where the MAN peeps are and toldim it's a bit bustified, and they found that the camshaft drive to the fuel pmp is broken. Hm.

Now i hope i will get pix, but anyway, the problem is that the monster straightcut gearwheel that drives the fuel pump has lost four teeth. So the pic wd be a big shiny camshaft bout a metre long on the end of which is the camshaft drive gearwheel from the crank (bout 9 inches diameter) which is fine, and inside that also on the camshaft end is the fuel pump gearwheel (6 inches dia) with four teeth missing. Like someone has dropped a spanner in there while it's running, cept i didn't. It's all one big assembly pressed together, so whole new camshaft assy needed.

The nice egrs found the four teeth in the sump, got a new camshaft, put it all together and ran it up on the bench today, but my question is...what the hell happened inside a fuel pump (or camshaft chamber) to rip a tooth out of a massive gear wheel eh? I mean, the gear wheel is about 6 inches in diameter, 2 cm thick. It drives a pump which sucks fuel. The shaft isn't bent, and i spose once one tooth went, it probly ripped the others. But why did the first tooth go?

The engine did have a fuel contamination problem a year ago (DOWN depsol!) but all that happened was it slowed to a stop - and the blockage was way upstream, not in the pump.

Having had and abused countles motorbikes and cars, lots of which have busted/seixzed - none busted the gears in the gearbox like this, so i think it cd be a bit worrying. Is there summink really very hard to drive in a fuel pump? Could this happen again?

Yet another example of poxy german engineering hiding behind the coat tails of Benz, i wonder? Or er is MAN part of the same group? Or is that MTU? dunno.

MAN have seen the damage and agreed to pay for the parts. Which, okay, is £2000 but a fraction of the cost of the work, and sortof shows that yerknow, they're a bit guilty. I mean, either it's their fault or not innit? I spose this is what my three weeks of calming down was about - it had 2 years on that part, not five. Grr gmmf...it's okay, this will pass. Anyway, the main thing is that i don't want it to happen again.

Also ...how long cd the engine run with a busted gear drive to the fuel pump? Surely - not very long? Or could this have happened/started ages ago?

Coments please.

 

[gonfishing]

Hi Matt
2K for the parts and 10K labour??? Even at £100 ph that's 3 weeks work!!! they're having a laugh surely???,
Flippin heck I did miss my Vocation !!!!!


Julian

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[tcm]

Re: never mind the money

well, um there a grand each for
the crane hire,
lift it out and relaunch,
rent ashore
ripping out things like aircon to let the engine out and fitting them

also, i think there's more than one bloke on it. Plus, they're the only MAN engineers, and none of them have flash motors, and this job seems to account for 2 weeks turnover, and they have to go on complicated courses, buy loads of spanners, and most of all rent a shed from MDL. So, not too horrid in the scheme of expensive things.

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[ShipsWoofy]

A friend of mine an avid biker type had a Kawasaki ZZR1100. He would drive me nuts all day in work telling my about the damn bike. He also seemed to change the oil every 1000 miles with Castrol R. This was one looked after bike.

Anyhow, one Monday he comes in to work very peeved, two of the cam shafts have snapped. Calls to Kawasaki prove fruitless as the bike is about a week outside warranty. Thing is a good mate of his is a metallurgist and he sent the bits to him. A full legal report comes back, the mate is often working in legal disputes so Kawasaki cannot argue with his findings.

Mate contacts Kawasaki and gives them a copy of this report. Over the next few weeks is transpires that this is a common fault with a certain batch of cams. I am not sure where he found that info, probably the owners club.

Kawasaki eventually make an offer of around £700.00 towards the £2500 bill. My mate is well pissed, especially with the report which stated serious casting flaws, by now the remaining two cams had been tested and he was told they could go the same way any minute.

Long story short, after many months, I think it went on for about six, Kawasaki would not budge, their offer was final, take it or leave it, or bring it to court, which my mate did not want to do, as all he wanted was his bike back.

So he took the cash and was very out of pocket for a manufacturers fault. Why am I writing this, well it seems like a very similar situation. Do you have the broken parts, it might be worth having them tested, it is highly probable that there may be a fault. It may be that the other power plant has problems too and you should look at having tests carried out before that breaks causing another £12,000 of damage.

Sorry to hear of your quandary, it seems all manufactures behave the same way, sling him 10% and see if he goes away.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Woof</A>

 

[[2068]]

Based on vast experience of breaking straight cut gears in a Suffolk Punch 35s, one of two things has happened, and it needs aircraft (or lawnmower) style investigation techniques to figure out which one applies:

1.) Manufacturing defect. Maybe that gear had a crack from the word go, right out of the factory. The crack expanded, encouraged by your blockage, and the tooth fell right out, followed by the others.

2.) Shock to gearwheel, caused by pump seizure. You would have noticed this. The impact would have been big, the engine would have stopped with a bang, and the whisky glasses would have fallen over. If this is the cause, it could happen again, for exactly the same reason.

Only way to find out is to have failed gearwheel&teeth examined properly to determine age and history of crack. It can be done for aircraft and lawnmowers, so why not marine diesels ?

dv.

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[kindredspirit]

I suppose it depends on whether a company is keen on increasing their market share.

We had an engine seize outside warranty on a Renault Master van three years ago. Renault replaced and paid for everything, no quibble. Result: Three years later, our fleet is now totally Renault.

I think it worked to their advantage, long term.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.begleys.com/weather.htm>Useful links for Irish waters.</A>

 

[DepSol]

I think Matt you may find your legal rights are more in your favour than MAN are suggesting by being nicey nicey and coughing up for some of it.

Would check this with a proper marine lawyer as you may have rights to get it all paid for. The law on tis stuff is changing regularly and more in favour of the customer rather than the supplier.

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.soltron.co.uk>the website</A>

 

[Gludy]

I really cannot see this problem being anything other than a fault on Man's part.

However in seeking compensation under consumer rights does it not matter where the purchase took place? In this case was it Italy or the UK? Or can you invoke the world wide gaurantee?



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Matt - sorry to hear about all this. Ya don't expect big motors like those to go pop. Anyway, similar story to shipswoofy - my brother had a Vauxhall Cavalier and at 80,000 miles old the camshaft snapped in half, knackering the engine. Now big bro, he's an inspector for the HSE, so off he goes to a colleague and had the shaft tested in a metallurgy lab. Turns out it was a manufacturing defect.

Bro wants a new engine - Vauxhall said no way!! He took 'em to a small claims court and won hands down. New engine and labour £2k - badda bing!

Point being that inspite of a "gold" warranty, you have got rights - excercise them. Don't let yet another marine shoddy service rip-off happen. A metallurgy report may cost you a couple o' ton or so.

On a different tack, I'll let Jane see this post. It may change her perspective on how much I spend on my ickle Windy. You know the score - "see, look how much Matt just spent on his"

Hope it gets sorted in your favour.

Cheers
Dave

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[tico]

Come on Matt!
Only 3 reasons gears lose teeth prematurely
1. Someone dropped a spanner or nut or bolt in it...... Big bang and happens pretty damn quick after the inclusion.

2. manufacturing defect (hidden crack or incorrect heat treatment)

3. Shock overload... i suppose cd have happened if you had lumps in fuel that tried to jam fuel pump and let to overload on drive train.

I know where i'd put my money!

<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt

 

[PhilF]

"Sorry to hear of your quandary, it seems all manufactures behave the same way, sling him 10% and see if he goes away. "

no they don't, I had a call from Jaguar recently. They have experienced some gear box failures and have replaced all 3 litre x type boxes - damn good I'd say you would have thought they would have waited to see if any more broke. The picked it up, left me a decent replacement and brought it back 3 days later

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[Bejasus]

I have to agree with tico and the others. Manufacturers are constantly striving to gain more power from original engine configurations. If this is a model which has undergone this type of uprating, it inevitably has been getting it's fuel pressures increased along the way putting more & more load on the fuel pump drive components. If these have not been uprated to take this extra load, then eventually something is going to give. The only other reasons are manufacturing defect or as previously stated, a foreign object involved.
I would definitely insist on a metallurgy report and some kind of investigation on your own part into any history of this type of failure. If it's going to cost you £12k thus far, a couple of hundred is peanuts for findings that may well be in your favour. Once you have the report, you are in a much stronger position.

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[tcm]

Re: Metallurgy tester in so\'ton?

okay then, anyone know someone who can do nip round and get the bits and do some tests ?

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[jfm]

not sure i\'d bother with metallurgy report

Sounds like manufacturing defect, can't believe any shock load in a fuel pump (what sort of pump? Positive displacement?)

Only other case I know of where this happened was becos the cage in the ball bearing set right next to the gear wheel bust, a ball popped out, and got into the nip of the two straight cut camshaft/pump/crank gear and bust a few teeth off. Dunno if that's plausible in your case.

I'd go steady on metallurgist report. You bought in France, from either Rodr'z (with Ancast as agent) or from Ancast. The ABN purchase structure might mean technically you were not the purchaser, I dunno. Like it or not, 2.5 years on, the risk of breakage even due to an original manufacture defect is the customer's not the suppliers. UK consumer law is utterly irrelevant (and wouldn't help you anyway, even if you had bort D2 in UK).

Your only recourse is the wty. That's a direct contract between you and MAN, but it applies as per its detailed wording, and no doubt has lots of exclusions and suchlike

Hence, only purpose of metallurgy report imho is to apply moral leverage on MAN to gettem to help out some more with cost of repairs. Whether it's worth the time and effort is your call, you know em. Sorry to sound negative, just saying it as I see it, all imho.

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[tcm]

Re: hm MAN wty info

well, bad news that didn't cost any money, so not too bad. The MAN wty is pretty specific

"extent of the entended warranty

MAN warrants that within theduraction of the extended warranty all D28 engine components listed below and identified on the basis of described causes of faults as being faulty will, at MAN's discretion be either replaced or repaired"

The components causes are

Crankcase (defect in casting)
Crankshaft (defect in forging)
>Camshaft (defect in forging)
Water pump housing (defect in casting)
etc etc

Now ,firstly this isn't the camshaft per se, it's the gear wheel stuck onto it, tho aactually part of the same big assembly. And, unfortunately, broken gear teeth ain't a defect in forging is it? cos it ain't forged, it's machined - milling and grinding. So get lost! oops i mean it's mine init this time, so er damn, i suppose.

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[jfm]

Re: hm MAN wty info

Hmm. Pretty specific limited warranty it seems.

If the carkshaft and ger are inseparable without semtex and sold as a single component then i would think you bust component is in fact a camshaft. A judge would almost certainly give you that. Then is it a forging defect? Dunno. I know the gears are machine cut but is the gear wheel blank a forging or a casting?.

If the blank is a forging, and the camshaft/gear are inseparable, and metallurgisy says (convincingly) that there was an original flaw in the gear wheel forging, THEN you have a leg to stand on, quite a good leg.

But is it worth it? They're supplying the new part free anyway, right? Presumably the gold warranty excludes consequential costs like lift out, dismantle, etc, anyway?

Bummer, I know.

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[Bejasus]

Re: not sure i\'d bother with metallurgy report

think it would still be of benefit to know the cause anyhow, coz there is still another great lump could go wrong. (hope not). £12k is a wad out of anyones wallet.

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[jfm]

why was the engine smokey

Leaving aside the warranty and who pays, I'm confused about the smoke. If 4 teeth here and there missing, the gears would still engage and drive the pump, no? And if the pump lost drive, that would shut the engine down surely. Why would it make engine run smokey? Dont unnerstand

Also on the case I mentioned, my brother's boat, the ball bearing failed on the stb shaft that drove the power take off on the front of one engine. The PTO drives a hydraulic pump. So the ball bearings fell into the straight cut gears and mashed the teeth. But the gear still engaged just, and the engine ran ok so would have limped home low rpm.

I say "would have", because while faffing in a heavy sea realising this problem had occured, he got the towrope to the rib caught around the other propellor, so stoppng that one completely. It was a lee shore and not enough safe time to dive down and hacksaw the rope off the prop, so he blammed the engine with bust gear wheels for 5 mins to get into a safe spot to allow a dive to the props, and just at the end of this blam the gearwheels did indeed smash to smithereens and buts went in the sump, dang



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[tcm]

Re: why was the engine smokey

well, spose the injection timing must've been buggerd with a tooth gone?

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[tcm]

Re: exaccerly - hunt for cause

too right. The admittedly v nice egrs have no idea why it bustified, but there's three other camshafts in there too. Thiv never seen this, and apparently loads of lifeboats have these engines (or similarish, same case anyway) , hence they have test bed etc.

Burgundben who has been on board for a while correctly guessed it was the stbd engine, the one that if u went down in engineroom is noticeable vibrating more than port side. But not hot running, 80-85.

There are "concertina" or "bellows" type bits on the exhaust, essentially a 8inch long piece of 4inch pipe flanges both ends which instead of staight-walled pipe is well, like a concertina (cept u wd need to be superman to compressit) looks like a sort of spring , goes in and out, obv allows movement , which allow seprately rubbermounted mounted exhaust to connect to rubbermounted engine. Anyways, they're both split, and that prob is definitely younger than 2 years old.



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