vyv_cox
Well-known member
Good description of a Sadler 34. I have never broached it, violently or otherwise.
Mainsheet track redundant?
- Thread starter Ardenfour
- Start date
Good description of a Sadler 34. I have never broached it, violently or otherwise.
sailorman
Well-known member
Me neither & rarely under canvased
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I could have written every word of that, adding only that I usually set the pegs so that the companionway is free on both tacks.
charles_reed
Active member
Of course, any mainsheet mid-cockpit is inconvenient and can be dangerous. My boat has the horse in front of the mainhatch and is in continuous use (Sailing or motor-sailing
Replacing the current track with a fixed U-bolt is, IMHO, a regressive step as you'll still have a nuisance under way and you'll lose a important part of sail control.
Why not replace the current system with one ahead of the forehatch? and do the job properly?
stuartwineberg
Well-known member
Make sure the attachment point is strong enough. I had a westerly warwick where they had done the reverse and placed a short track just in front of the original u bolt point. The deck was four times thicker at the u bolt point than it was just a few inches further forward and the track started to pull the cockpit floor upwards
PuffTheMagicDragon
Active member
I have an arrangement that is similar to the one described by Vyv Cox on my Centurion 32 and it works well under all conditions that I have met.
Re the idea of a U-bolt on the cockpit floor. I used to have a U-bolt on the foredeck of the Centaur that I had. Having hurt my foot badly when I inadvertently stepped down from the coachroof rather heavily onto the U-bolt while I was bare-footed, I would not have another U-bolt in any place where someone (especially me) might step on it.
Re the idea of a U-bolt on the cockpit floor. I used to have a U-bolt on the foredeck of the Centaur that I had. Having hurt my foot badly when I inadvertently stepped down from the coachroof rather heavily onto the U-bolt while I was bare-footed, I would not have another U-bolt in any place where someone (especially me) might step on it.
lw395
Well-known member
A boom intended for mid-boom sheeting needs to be a lot stronger than one where the load from the clew goes (pretty much) straight down into the sheet.
Likewise, if you rely on the kicker to provide all the leach tension, that demands a strong boom, as well as putting a lot of load on the gooseneck and forward thrust on the mast.
All surmountable, but the boat was designed with a track for good reason.
A mid boom sheet can also be difficult to adjust from the helm.
It would be galling to do this work then buy a new sail in a few years and not be able to set it well.
The track also spreads out a big load into the cockpit structure.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
How does one attach a mainsheet in front of the forehatch?
vyv_cox
Well-known member
Sail backwards?
dunedin
Well-known member
A main sheet track is great aid to performance on a boat which already has an efficient mainsail, the track is a reasonable width across the cockpit, and has adjustment ropes led so they can be easily adjusted / played from the windward rail.
The most common modes are (a) track to windward for better pointing in light winds and (b) dumping the track to leeward and then rapidly pulling back on again in gusty weather.
However, I doubt most main sheet tracks on cruising boats are set up effectively nor used effectively. And certainly must be near pointless on a furly main boat.
So for the OP, if the track is not used in the modes (a) or (b) today then removing would not cause any loss of performance.
If interested in racing, fitting a wider cockpit track with rope adjustment would be worth considering.
The most common modes are (a) track to windward for better pointing in light winds and (b) dumping the track to leeward and then rapidly pulling back on again in gusty weather.
However, I doubt most main sheet tracks on cruising boats are set up effectively nor used effectively. And certainly must be near pointless on a furly main boat.
So for the OP, if the track is not used in the modes (a) or (b) today then removing would not cause any loss of performance.
If interested in racing, fitting a wider cockpit track with rope adjustment would be worth considering.
johnalison
Well-known member
I understood that the disadvantage of a clew fitting, such as most of the Westerlys, is that the force of the wind on the sail will stress the boom by pulling it upwards, and that somewhere further forward was easier on the structure. Not applicable with a loose foot, of course.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Where are you going to get another toe from?
lw395
Well-known member
Unless you've got very old sails, 95+ % of the load is within a short distance of the leach.
lw395
Well-known member
I don't see where the OP says he has in mast reefing?
However, just because a sail is a simple triangle like an in-mast reefed main, does not mean there is no point setting it properly.
If you can't control the twist in the sail, you are forced to either oversheet the lower part of the sail or let the top flog.
If you want to sail efficiently in rough water, it helps to be able to let the traveller down a bit and keep the leach firm.
Conversely, in light air it's nice to be able to pull the traveller up to allow some twist.
But if you're prepared to compromise to avoid the need to step over a track in the cockpit, that's up to you.
A short track on the cockpit floor might suit some people as a compromise, but it does mean the sheet rubs on the lockers on a tight reach.
I think if tracks did not make a significant difference AWB builders would be pretty quick to save £££ and have a U bolt instead?
[2574]
...
Not so, at least on our furly main boat. The track is the width of the pilot house roof so probably three feet each side of the centreline and it is constantly in action for the various reasons described above.
Colvic Watson
Well-known member
I use the traveller a lot on the boat. We're hardly a close winded boat so it helps with that but when it's time to motorsail the traveller is superb, helps you keep the main up and drawing at extremely close angles to the wind.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I don't think the carbon-fibre gear knobs on boy racer Saxos make much difference either. Style, dude, style.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Yes, but is actually pushing the boat forward?
William_H
Well-known member
I understand OPs problem with a track across the middle of the cockpit. Indeed a friend of mine had a 22fter with just that arrangement and he replaced it witha U bolt in the middle of the floor. Stubbing it with your toe is not a problem unless the mainsheet tackle is removed. I don't think he regretted it even though he sold the boat later.
Main sheet and traveller is all about geometry. In so many ways. Think about the pull direction you need and how your tackle arrangement can give that pull direction. ie downward when boom is out running and inward towards c/l when beating.
Options
A main sheet can be on a track on the cabin top over the entrance hatch. This puts a load on the boom around ahead of the centre of the boom so puts a lot of end stress on the boom and needs more tackle power but uses less rope. No good with a sliding hatch top.
A main sheet traveller can be on top of the bridge deck. Again stress nearer the middle of the boom. Can get in the way of entering cabin and dangerous in a gybe if someone is sitting in the hatch area. Mine is like this and I am pleased with it. My traveller is operated by 3 to 1 tackle.
The middle of the cockpit is another position with obvious disadvantages. Track on the floor would limit size of track and make the tackle pull from even lower. This means less power pulling boom towards the centre line and more downwards. But when you release the main sheet the boom will tend to rise as much as move away from c/l.
Last option for main sheet and track is at the transom or end of the boom. Less strain on the boom but does mean track is not so long compared to boom traverse. ie will hit the stops so you have to let the main sheet looser to get boom right out. So not so much down pull when boom is out. A bit tricky with transom mounted rudder/tiller. This system as with any other location can have a double ended sheet tackle going along the boom down to the deck at the gooseneck then to cleats or winches on cabin top. As used on large race boats. Out of reach of helmsman but OK for crew. Is that called "german" sheeting?
Now to get the required down pull on the boom when the boom is out as in running or just when you need to ease the sail in overload a vang is often used. However on my boat and many cabin keel boats the boom is relatively close to the cabin top. This means that the geometry of the vang means very little power. That is if you are to avoid huge bend forces on the boom and huge end/down forces on the gooseneck. On dinghies with vang and mast base sitting on the keel there is a much bigger triangle possible for the vang this means more vang power (at the clew) so traveller not so valuable.
This racing yacht http://www.wayf.org.au/wji/wj_found36.asp
and this racing yacht deesign http://www.windrushyachts.com.au/sailing-boats/bakewell-white-8
I have sailed on both they are both built for short close quarters racing and both do not use a main sheet track but rely on vang for down pull power on the boom when let outwards. As a matter of interest both designs have a box in the middle of the cockpit floor from which the controls for vang main sheet and back stay tension emerge for constant adjustment. The actual main sheet attaches to the cockpit floor aft of the tiller.
But for my little boat I would not be without the main sheet traveller. Indeed I have worn out and replaced both the track and car over 30+ years of using it. But my vang is almost useless only providing some down pull when boom is right out running and I use the traveller constantly when over powered and always when tacking to pull the boom up to c/l. You (OP) must decide. good luck olewill
So you OP makes the decision if windward performance is important or if reducing chafe of main sail on shrouds is important then you need either a good vang or a traveller. good luck olewill
Main sheet and traveller is all about geometry. In so many ways. Think about the pull direction you need and how your tackle arrangement can give that pull direction. ie downward when boom is out running and inward towards c/l when beating.
Options
A main sheet can be on a track on the cabin top over the entrance hatch. This puts a load on the boom around ahead of the centre of the boom so puts a lot of end stress on the boom and needs more tackle power but uses less rope. No good with a sliding hatch top.
A main sheet traveller can be on top of the bridge deck. Again stress nearer the middle of the boom. Can get in the way of entering cabin and dangerous in a gybe if someone is sitting in the hatch area. Mine is like this and I am pleased with it. My traveller is operated by 3 to 1 tackle.
The middle of the cockpit is another position with obvious disadvantages. Track on the floor would limit size of track and make the tackle pull from even lower. This means less power pulling boom towards the centre line and more downwards. But when you release the main sheet the boom will tend to rise as much as move away from c/l.
Last option for main sheet and track is at the transom or end of the boom. Less strain on the boom but does mean track is not so long compared to boom traverse. ie will hit the stops so you have to let the main sheet looser to get boom right out. So not so much down pull when boom is out. A bit tricky with transom mounted rudder/tiller. This system as with any other location can have a double ended sheet tackle going along the boom down to the deck at the gooseneck then to cleats or winches on cabin top. As used on large race boats. Out of reach of helmsman but OK for crew. Is that called "german" sheeting?
Now to get the required down pull on the boom when the boom is out as in running or just when you need to ease the sail in overload a vang is often used. However on my boat and many cabin keel boats the boom is relatively close to the cabin top. This means that the geometry of the vang means very little power. That is if you are to avoid huge bend forces on the boom and huge end/down forces on the gooseneck. On dinghies with vang and mast base sitting on the keel there is a much bigger triangle possible for the vang this means more vang power (at the clew) so traveller not so valuable.
This racing yacht http://www.wayf.org.au/wji/wj_found36.asp
and this racing yacht deesign http://www.windrushyachts.com.au/sailing-boats/bakewell-white-8
I have sailed on both they are both built for short close quarters racing and both do not use a main sheet track but rely on vang for down pull power on the boom when let outwards. As a matter of interest both designs have a box in the middle of the cockpit floor from which the controls for vang main sheet and back stay tension emerge for constant adjustment. The actual main sheet attaches to the cockpit floor aft of the tiller.
But for my little boat I would not be without the main sheet traveller. Indeed I have worn out and replaced both the track and car over 30+ years of using it. But my vang is almost useless only providing some down pull when boom is right out running and I use the traveller constantly when over powered and always when tacking to pull the boom up to c/l. You (OP) must decide. good luck olewill
So you OP makes the decision if windward performance is important or if reducing chafe of main sail on shrouds is important then you need either a good vang or a traveller. good luck olewill
Colvic Watson
Well-known member
Yes. Having trouble with yours?