LPG - will it return

[ontheplane]

Lets assume for a moment it is April 2007, the sun's out and Red diesel is now 105p per litre on the Marina....

LPG had the potential, and I actually converted a boat back in the mid 90's and certainly saved the cost of the conversion so I was happy with that...

Now.. Obviously the 50' boats + will still all be diesel

The 20' and less will all still be petrol.

Who can see 21' - 45' boats being offered with Petrols and a Factory fitted LPG conversion as an option rather than diesel...??

I know it didn't take off last time - but perhaps if red diesel goes, the incentive will be there to do the job properly.

A factory fit install would only add about £1000 per engine, and if there was a filling infrastructure would it take off.

I'm already thinking of fitting an Autogas conversion to our Farline 21' as we can fill it up for 33ppl at Asda (we trail it) and the conversion will cost about £1000...

Will save about £100 per tankful..

Be interested to hear views...

 

[Nick_H]

People havent converted their petrol cars and boats in any significant numbers even though petrol prices are approaching £1 a litre, so high fuel costs do not seem to force the change, and are even less likely to do so when compared to diesel engines

 

[ari]

Trouble is, a petrol engine is still a lot less economical than a diesel (even more so if running off of LPG).

A petrol engine tends to be a lighter higher revving and generally less robust unit.

The torquey nature of a big turbo'd diesel (or 2) suits big heavy flybridge boats.

There is a lot more potential unreliability with a petrol engine (ignition systems, electrics etc) and thats before you add in the LPG malarky.

A lot of people don't like the "floating bomb" charictoristics of massive pressurised LPG tanks.

LPG tanks have to be cylindrical and pressurised (so as I understand it you can't actually run them to completly empty) and therefore take up much more space than diesel tanks to give the same amount of fuel. Add that to a larger (therefore thirstier) boat and you'd have real trouble accomodating the tanks.

And finally, if it's not taken off with petrol boats, why should it with diesel? Petrol has been way over road prices at marinas for years. If it's not attractive enough for them, why will it be an attractive alternative to diesels?

It's an interesting idea, but I think really LPG in boats is pretty much a dead duck, and I don't see people opting for it over diesel...

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Clearly I have a vested interst here, as I have two LPG engines in CI - and at the end of my third year with her, I can say its been a success. LPG has given me thousands of cruising miles that would otherwise have skinned me alive on costs. The engines seem to be holding up and performing well (touch wood) and the installation has been reliable (again, touch wood).

I take your point on the 21-40 foot size boats and I personally think Calor were way too hasty in canning the 20-odd stations that they did. I think houghn is a little off the mark in that cars don't burn 20 gph - coz there's the rub. 20 gph at £5 per gallon or 20 gph at £1.50 per gallon. The difference being operating costs at £100 per hour and operating costs at £30 per hour - and I know which I (and many boaters like me) would rather have.

IMHO people who can afford boats at about 30ft, don't expect to buy into running costs associated with boats at 50ft. A resurgance?? Possibly. I would like to see this happen as it makes sense, it could also bring a new market into the UK with 25-35 foot boats with petrol (LPG) engines - and that in itself creates a new sector. Don't forget how much cheaper petrol engines are vs diesel - the cost of conversions in comparison are nowt! Lets see what happens.

 

[ari]

[ QUOTE ]

I think houghn is a little off the mark in that cars don't burn 20 gph -

[/ QUOTE ]

But boats don't do 12,000 miles a year on average.

 

[Nautorius]

Well considering that Volvo already do Bi-Fuel engines for cars I am sure they must have considered marinising those engines?

EU & UK legislative policy is now moving towards Bio-Fuels. With this in mind I would hazard a guess that the Volvos of this world are looking at Bio-Diesel engines for boats. Bio-Diesels currently have lower Tax involved as they are environmentaly freindly. It is more likely therefore (IMHO) that we will be looking at Bio Diesel engines within the next 3/5 years rather than a return to LPG. Having Twin Petrols, if LPG had worked it would have been a benefit. Unfortunately it has not curently worked out.

Alternatively we could use wind energy...you know, get some sails!

Paul

 

[PCUK]

Does anyone really believe that government won't hike the tax on LPG the moment it becomes popular? Of course they will, just the same as they will with Bio diesel. It doesn't matter what fuel you use, it will all be taxed the same sooner or later.

 

[ari]

[ QUOTE ]
Alternatively we could use wind energy...you know, get some sails!

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Do what now!!?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif




/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Dave_Snelson]

ari - I think the problem has been with "after-market" conversions and some of them not that good. To deal with your points:

Petrol engines lighter and higher revving - yes. Less robust - no. Its all down to the owner and servicing routines.

Big diesels in big boats - agreed. The market for this idea resides in 25-40 foot boats (and arguably only up to 35 foot).

Unreliability of petrols? Can't agree here save to say its down to the owner again. I have coverd 1800 nm in mine without missing a beat. And starting them? Click-brrmm, every time.

Floating bomb? Oddly (coz I own one!) I take your point here. But again its down to the install and the owner. The tanks are high grade 6mm powder coated steel. The pressure in them is 80psi. I have had a lot more problems with the petrol side of my boat than with LPG, as a lot of folk on here will remember. Get the installation checked / serviced / repaired evry year. Again, down to the owner.

Tank size & shape? Agreed. If I were to change my boat, I would get rid of the 80 gallon petrol tank and fit a smaller compact 20 gallon petrol and have more room for LPG. After-market installs are indeed a compromise. But factory fit?

Petrol vs diesel? I don't see this as the key issue here, coz in larger boats diesel will be the only option. Its just that 25-35 bracket. Which I am sure is the largest selling bracket in the UK. As I have said in another reply, people that buy into this bracket do not envisage (and cannot afford) buying into the 40-50 foor market where running costs are concerned.

I will freely admit that my views are coloured as Pwllheli has LPG and indeed, there is a garage in the larger marina complex that is arguably N Wales' largest Range Rover LPG converter. So I have suppliy and service out of one place. But Calor adopted the wrong approach (the usual arrogant Calor approach) and thought they could clean up another market instantly and without bringing on board competant local support. Not so. No quick bucks, no market domination = no Calor.

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Peter, I am cynical as you when it comes to this government, but LPG has European support and oddly support still in this country through the "powershift" program as sponsored by this government. The stated tax aims are to raise taxes on LPG by 1ppl per fiscal year over the coming 5 years. The long term tax prognosis is better than with other fuels (inc bio fuels). But I do agree that this shower can change their minds /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Nautibusiness]

[ QUOTE ]
Who can see 21' - 45' boats being offered with Petrols and a Factory fitted LPG conversion as an option rather than diesel...??


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem you have is that a very large numbers of manufacturers are not UK builders and the UK market is relatively small for them (overall).

For them to have a production line for LPG boats just for our market isn't financially viable. The rest of Europe are already paying stupid prices for their fuel and are living with it (That doesn't mean I agree, I think it is disgusting) as a result, I think that we will be told to "Live with it" too.

That said, if you are buying a small boat from a small UK manufacturer then maybe you will get LPG in production, but very unlikely from the big boys.

Boat builders are often lined up alongside car builders and the analogy doesn't add up.
Cars are designed and build with astronomical budgets yet your next Sealine, Orkney, Jeanneau or whatever will have been designed by one clever chap, a mould built and prototype constructed with a few further tweaks before the boat hits production with further development there on in.
A new boat is conceived and produced for a tiny fraction of the budget for a car.
The marine industry hasn't got the financial clout to

Unfortunately it is Mr Average who is going to suffer.
For most of us, our boating is our favourite pastime and we plough all our hard earned pennies into it. Save for our homes, our boats are the most expensive things we own and we spend more on them than we do on the family car.
It is Mr Average who will be hit hardest with those that own the larger boats not really noticing as they can afford it anyway.

 

[Whitelighter]

Well I for one am looking forward to next season - my MPI petrol engine is smooth and quiet, only burns about 9 Gallons of petrol per hour at 22knts (plenty fast for me). There is no smoke on startup so far she hasnt spontaneously combusted either and while my mates fill up their diesel tanks at 45-55ppl I will enjoy squeezing 200 litres of LPG into my tanks for 37ppl. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Dave_Snelson]

And when your mates start paying £1/L then your grin will be even wider - and so too will your enjoyment /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[KevB]

[ QUOTE ]
45-55ppl I will enjoy squeezing 200 litres of LPG into my tanks for 37ppl.

[/ QUOTE ]

But diesel is 40% more efficient than LPG so you are still paying a lot more.

I had my first boat converted to LPG 2 x 5ltr Volvo's. I had a professional installation that cost over 5k. I Had no problems with LPG except the 180 ltrs only lasted for 3 hrs cruising so I was forever filling up.

 

[Whitelighter]

That is a fair point Kev, and as you have experience with LPG then I have no choice but to agree with you in part. I suspect your engines were carb (please correct me if I am wrong) though, while mine is a multipoint injection system (like a car) with an injector for petrol and LPG for each cylinder.

I cannot speak for carb efficiency, but my engine burns 9 gallons per hour at 22knts on petrol, and due to its lower calourific value, burns more LPG. I have not had the boat converted that long, but currently she is using about 10 - 10.5 GPH on LPG. That gives me over 4 hours of running at 22knts, so about 85 nautical miles of range.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not a supporter of red diesel being taken away from us - I say us because someday I hope to upgrade to a 40ft ish mobo and diesel is the only choice - but for me, with a single engine boat LPG offered a real alternative that offers a decent fuel cost without having to shell out an ADDITIONAL £13k for a diesel engine.

With the introduction of MPI, fuel efficient engines I think LPG offers a decent alternative.

 

[Whitelighter]

oh, and £0.37 + 40% is equivalent to £0.52ppl, so at worst I am paying the same per mile as diesel.

 

[KevB]

I had nothing but a good experience with LPG and actually sold the boat for 10k more than I paid for it which I guess was partly due to the installation of LPG. I did at least a couple hundred hours on LPG and at most only had to use petrol for a couple of hours. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
This was 4 years ago and the removal of most the filling stations may have changed it's usefulness /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Whitelighter]

I know, I think calor were a bit premature with the removal of so many sites! The good news is that a company is in negotiation with calor to buy some of the pontoons and run the with BPs support - who are offering fuel at aroun 10ppl less than calor. We wont see a price drop at the pump, but if the sites can take a bit more profit per litre then there is more chance that they will retain the service.

The first of the new pontoons is planned for the Dart next year. I have my fingers crossed that red diesel stays, and that LPG is accepted as a viable alternative. I dont understand why so many people knock it - are we afraid that it will replace red? Because I dont think that will ever happen, and the two could live quite comfortably together IMHO.

 

[neale]

I think so many people knock it because for every success story there seems to be two or three people seriously out of pocket after converting and it all going wrong, (me for one!!!). The problem will be for any newcomer such as BP, convincing the marinas to give space to LPG. I pulled in to Dover and filled up with LPG, I was told I was the first person in two years to take any!!! Many other marinas were becoming fed up with having the equipment, sometimes taking up valuable pontoon space, and not seeing any return on it.

For some reason the 7.4ltr engines seem to fare better on LPG than the small blocks. Most of the bad experiences I have heard about relate to 4.3, 5 and 5.7ltr engines

 

[ontheplane]

I think it will come back ONLY if someone gets behind the infrastructure. Certainly if I have something trailable with a decent sized engine then I would try and have a Autogas and Marine filler fitted so I can pick up gas anywhere.

As to the danger of the "bomb" scenario it's B*lloc*s quite honestly. The tanks for LPG are vastly stronger than petrol or diesel ones and provided they are checked once a year they offer no real risk - certainly a lot less than a gas cooker...

I hope to see a resurgance - it's a lot more practical to fit a LPG conversion in a 23' boat for a couple of thou than spend an extra £13k on a diesel as the price of diesel starts to soar.