oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
Many diesel suppliers are now supplying this new EU low sulphur diesel. What is the issue using this stuff on marine diesel engines ? Thanks.
Low sulphur Diesel - what's the problem?
- Thread starter oceanfroggie
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rafiki_
Well-Known Member
To my understanding, there is not really an issue with using low sulphur diesel, and in fact in a modern diesel engine, it is a better match. However, there may be some bio diesel or FAME content, up to 7% in low sulphur, which is more prone to the dreaded bug. I believe most suppliers are treating the fuel, but best to check with your supplier.
Low % FAME/Bio not a problem to the fuel system, but above 10%, there may be an issue with synthetic fuel hoses and seals.
Low % FAME/Bio not a problem to the fuel system, but above 10%, there may be an issue with synthetic fuel hoses and seals.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
The issue is simple, road diesel and marine diesel are exactly the same thing in most areas, this is to manufacture one type of diesel for all applications for cost efficiencies.
Most road diesel, therefore most marine diesel has a world average bio content of approximately 5% which is the current standard, due to a shortage of bio element this is currently only averaging 3% in the UK. Being in short supply means diesel manufacturers can exploit the legislation regarding bio content and reduce it, the fact it now costs more is of course irrelevant.
Most road diesel, therefore most marine diesel has a world average bio content of approximately 5% which is the current standard, due to a shortage of bio element this is currently only averaging 3% in the UK. Being in short supply means diesel manufacturers can exploit the legislation regarding bio content and reduce it, the fact it now costs more is of course irrelevant.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Assasin is spot on with his summmary.
I have report of tests carried out by Rail Industry Safety Board into tests using zero sulpur fuel (If ANYBODY else refers to new fuels as 'low sulphur' I will blow a gasket, fuel is effectively 'zero sulpur' because we are now at such a low level of sulphur we cannot easily measure it, tread with care! All that aside conclusions of tests are simple, zero to minor impact. As I have said before only some older engines with CAV DPA pumps MAY be affected, all dependant on engine compartment temperatures. I did develop a fix for the DPA a zillion years ago when we went to 'low sulphur 50ppm fuel'.
People claiming NO FAME in fuel are a little dishonest, if you read regs you can be 3% or less and claim FAME free!
On the subject of seals we got around effect of low sulphur and latterly zero sulphur a while back, big issue is effect of even a small quantity of FAME together with water has highly damaging effect on seal performance, vessels with Mickey Mouse fuel filter set ups who regularly villify me be on notice, do the job properly, or face the consequences.
ulyden
Well-Known Member
How is the new standard for lubrication.? Sulfur has a lubricating effect. Old standard was based on the wear and tear on a bosch pump. How is this new?
(Some years ago there was total caos about this)
Any advice on TBN number of old engines that run no sulfur in diesel fuel?
People who drive Volvo in Norway must have extra lubricant added to diesel for Recommendations from Volvo Penta.
Biodiesel in marine diesel is not used where I live. Safty. Maybe new additives will keep the water stable?
(Some years ago there was total caos about this)
Any advice on TBN number of old engines that run no sulfur in diesel fuel?
People who drive Volvo in Norway must have extra lubricant added to diesel for Recommendations from Volvo Penta.
Biodiesel in marine diesel is not used where I live. Safty. Maybe new additives will keep the water stable?
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
When we went 50 ppm sulphur around 1999 Mercedes Sprinters and Ford Transits with Bosch VE pump suffered lubricity problems. Within a year oil industry had a handle on lubricity issues and Bosch introduced their LFP (Light Fuel Pack) for the VE fuel pump for production and then around 2001 LFP components were available for service. All testing from the very beginning of Bosch CP3 common rail pump was done with zero sulphur fuels. VW and Ford had hang up regarding potential CP3 durability so VW stuck with unit injectors and Ford used Delpi, all proved a mistake. Our concerns regarding fuel lubricated Bosch CP3 durability have proved baseless.
Life can be stressful at times, so lets go digging for things for things to worry about.......
Additives are not there to combat water content 100% responsibility of engine operator. I would tread with care over issue of NO FAME, legislation is EU wide and as I said before 3% or less is considered FAME free.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
I'm no expert but it seems to me that there is another issue.
The bug.
I believe that our marina switched to road diesel earlier this year.
Since then, we have started to see diesel bug in fuel in cases where previously there was no evidence.
In our case, we have got on top of it really quickly and my system is as clean as a whistle.
But it has got me wondering and there seems to be plenty of views on the internet that the sulphur in the old diesel was keeping the bug at bay. And now that we also have bio mixed in, the bug is more likely.
At the moment, I'm treating the fuel with a "complete" treatment that not only kills the bug but is supposed to lubricate the system as well.
As I say, I'm no expert but this process seemed to me to be a good measure.
The bug.
I believe that our marina switched to road diesel earlier this year.
Since then, we have started to see diesel bug in fuel in cases where previously there was no evidence.
In our case, we have got on top of it really quickly and my system is as clean as a whistle.
But it has got me wondering and there seems to be plenty of views on the internet that the sulphur in the old diesel was keeping the bug at bay. And now that we also have bio mixed in, the bug is more likely.
At the moment, I'm treating the fuel with a "complete" treatment that not only kills the bug but is supposed to lubricate the system as well.
As I say, I'm no expert but this process seemed to me to be a good measure.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Biocides which are supposed to be lubricity additives are a little smoke and windows, in addition sulphur content has no impact on bilogical growth, however you are quite correct the spores of the bug are rampant in fuel distributors bulk storage tanks, particularly those that are used for road fuel. Supermarkets are constantly at war with bulk distributors as the cost of cleaning and treating their infected forecourt storage represents significant overhead on very tight margins.
I was also told by fuel refiner when we went 50 ppm low sulphur fuel that process which drives out the sulphur makes resulting fuel dequescent, which would go some way to explain peoples perception that the old high sulphur fuel keep biological growth at bay. I raised this at recent marine fuel forum I asked the question and was told by major fuel disributor that I had been misinformed. Not sure who to believe without seeing some real data...........
ulyden
Well-Known Member
Some years ago i checked what fuel our test engines were running on. We were running on diesel for heating. This was the same as marine gas oil 300ppm sulphur. I ended up talking to lab on the refinery. I could feel the fear of having auto diesel with 10% bio fuel mixed on marinas. They were afraid that this fuel should end up on a marina causing bugs and blocked filters on boats and ships.
The combination of water and biodiesel is perfect for bugs or diesel animals we call it.
Lubrication. The MTU4000 series seem to have their fuel pump lubricated by engine oil. It’s a ordinary piston pump.
The combination of water and biodiesel is perfect for bugs or diesel animals we call it.
Lubrication. The MTU4000 series seem to have their fuel pump lubricated by engine oil. It’s a ordinary piston pump.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
What are you using MTU4000s on - they are massive - not as big as the 8000s but still huge.
Monique
Well-Known Member
FWIW, I use a "bug" killer and upon advice of a trucker mate, I add a liter of 2 stroke oil per 250 liters fuel.
Light smoke on start but keeps everything lubed up.
Light smoke on start but keeps everything lubed up.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
FWIW, I use a "bug" killer and upon advice of a trucker mate, I add a liter of 2 stroke oil per 250 liters fuel.
Light smoke on start but keeps everything lubed up.
A steering wheel jockey is just about the last person with knowledge on the correct way to maintain a diesel engine. Just wait until the guy poisons his DPF filter and finds himself stuffed with a three grand bill up his shirt......
Invest the money spent on proper fuel filteration.
The the industry pretty much uses one company wherever you are in the world for fuel additive packs:
http://www.lubrizol.com/
ulyden
Well-Known Member
They are used in a lot of catamarans. First in 4000 1998 in the boat's Sleiper og Draupner. (Sleipner had an accident and hit a rock. 16 people lost their lives. Boat went down in 30 min.)
2000 seies and 4000series is a normal engine in these boats today. When I worked with this boats the MTU396 MTU183 and 493 vere common. MTU lost some customers due to this early advanced fuel injection. Some MAN and MWM were used but now they claim custommers are comming back. Maybe because MAN and other competitors also are using advanced fuel injection.
Norway is a kind of trial area for mtu engines and I remember lots of white dressed germans looking at engines we had for overhaul or repair. Most MTU engines are used in yacts and rail applications.