Low carbon sailing

[dunedin]

All you have done is applied your current use paradigm to the idea and dismissed it without any thought towards the OPs request.

I have sailed to St Kilda 3 x times, so I don’t agree with your windless days scenario. In fact I struggle with that whole part of your post. A motor boat might suit you better.

I sail, I rarely motor, and my arrival times at upwind destinations like the Snd of Mull is about 30 minutes to an hour behind those who overtake me under motor.

In the days of the big fleets in West Highland week from the Clyde to Oban, I don’t recall passage times being wildly longer than motoring times when I delivered the yacht back, usually under time pressure.

In the past, sailing in tight spaces was a routine activity for me, on and off the pontoon and into harbours, but my skills are less now and the activity prohibited.

The 3 x Peaks race is another analogue.

In answering the OPs query, the tech and carbon offsetting methods exist to sail efficiently and carbon free without an engine, which would not be an inconvenience with a bit of adjustment to leisure sailing attitudes.

What paradigm anchor do you use?

We can agree to disagree on the viability of a motor less new build yacht being a green solution (which is what I was replying to). Not least because adding a 20hp motor, electric or diesel, will make a tiny difference to the huge carbon footprint of any new yacht - GRP hull and decks, all the interior and deck equipment, masts, sails, ropes etc. The extra for a small auxiliary is tiny. And certainly don’t recognise the “dismissed without any thought”. Probably studied this topic in more depth than most on here.

And good that you also sail most places. As noted, if anybody is sailing we are always one of them - and have tacked Up and down the Sound of Mull countless times, amazed by the “mobo with mast” brigade.
But even with a fast cruiser, there have been long periods of high pressure, lovely and sunny but no wind. As noted we will sail in 5 knots true in flat water, 4 knots if just pootling. But in the 45 miles to St Kilda we only got a breath of wind in the last 3 miles. Blasted back however.

But overall I think a small auxiliary engine - even if battery electric - is a much more realistic proposition than an engine less yacht for most sailing cruisers.

 

[William_H]

My own 21ft trailer sailer sails extremely well such that I have not carried an engine for 15 years or so. The drop fin keel is about 1.1m deep by about 420cm chord out of a flat bottom. So not so good at heave too but easy to tack. Now my sailing is just weekly club racing of about 2.5 hrs and yes there is a support boat able to tow me home in case of lack of wind. But mostly with a large sail area and light boat I have only been towed home once in last 30 years. yes I carry paddles that can be used as oars and she can be moved quite well in calm conditions. (tides not so much of a worry here).
I tow the dinghy to the water using a 24v mobility scooter which is charged by solar panels at home. Pretty much carbon free if we allow that the carbon to produce scooter, boat and sails was all done in the long past. ol'will

Note to self " Do not boast on my UK friends on this forum" Last evening all of the above proved wrong in a short evening race. Race starts 1745 with time limit to 2040 being just after sun down but still twilight. Yachting Australia rules make night racing onerous on safety gear etc.
Anyway started in beautiful conditions if a bit blowy with no 3 jib full main. A small conniption right on start line/start time when critical jib sheet bowline let go. Shaken loose with tail not long enough. Got that fixed and set off about 30 seconds late. Boat went beautifully and began catching boats ahead. Little spinnaker run went well and got in front. One other boat in div. 3 against me 2 more on same course same start time in div 4. Sailing was magic sun going down 25 degrees temp wind going a bit lighter.
That must have been when whoever organises wind read my post above. About 1 km of windward tacking in fairly narrow river to finish line in sight. Wind slowly declined and contrary tide increased. Must have chosen wrong side of river for bad tide as other boats passed us sticking to other side. Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. 3 other small boats got to within 70m of finish line but that was on the bad tide side./ We had gone onto the far side and got apparently up wind up tide of finish line. I could see the enemy sitting stopped even going back wards in no wind tide flow. Sailed across toward the line going apparently well. Looked like we had snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Until 40 m from finish wind dropped and we also drifted away from the line.
Time limit expired race DNF ed.
Well my swing mooring was down tide/wind of start finish line so thought I could get back to mooring. Tide still fierce got swept past mooring by 50 m and ended up grabbing another boat on mooring just to stay in one place. The final indignity when my opposition came back under o/b motor and towed us to mooring.
More frustration when a kid must have turned speed control down on scooter and I spent time trying to get it to go. Finally got home.
Rewarded shortly after by a fierce thunder storm and wonderful heavy rain. I tell people it never rains here between Oct and April but even there I was proven wrong. That weather guy has a sense of humour against us mere mortal sailors. ol'will
So disregard all of above but I still will not buy a new motor. Or perhaps I should. ol'will

 

[Pete7]

I've done this, and still bare the mental scars!

You didn't fancy doing this sort of thing then?

You tube

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A good proportion of my sailing is in an engineless keelboat. She’s on a swinging mooring, very tidal. We don’t sail with very light winds, first off. Coming back go the mooring can be challenging. Getting on and off the boat can also be surprisingly challenging, it can be very rough. You could cruise this boat, people have in the past. She’s wooden, 20ft, long keel, robust. I’ll try the tri off the same mooring sometime, see if it’s easier or harder

 

[Snowgoose-1]

When you look at old time yachting and fishing boats in light winds , most noticeable is the amount of extra sail they could put up . True, they had the crew to do it .

As mentioned, play cruising yachts are largely under-powered for many reasons. If you want to attract people to yachting, you don't want to frighten the life out of the family. If we are possibly steering towards lighter, greener , low range auxiliary engines, it would probably need to go hand in hand with larger and better sail handling. Things like removable top masts could come back into fashion and easier cruising chute/spinnaker flying.

It would of course be a lot easier to design yachts like this from scratch but I think there would be quite a few takers . There are lots of young new breed monied classes out there that don't fit the stereotypes of old .

 

[Stemar]

You didn't fancy doing this sort of thing then?

You tube

If he's having fun, good luck to him. Maybe I have no romance in my soul, but that looked like a lot of faffing around when a couple of minutes with the engine could have me with a glass in my hand two minutes in.

Also worth mentioning that it's often that crowded in the small boat channel but the boats are moving, with a lot of mobos just off the plane, chopping the water into great lumps. Oh, and the Normandy takes up a LOT of space and, with the best will in the world, isn't going to dodge me if I get it wrong there

 

[Pete7]

If we are possibly steering towards lighter, greener , low range auxiliary engines, it would probably need to go hand in hand with larger and better sail handling. Things like removable top masts could come back into fashion and easier cruising chute/spinnaker flying.

So what changes are you planning for your yacht?

 

[rogerthebodger]

You didn't fancy doing this sort of thing then?

You tube

Wow that is some skilled sailing and docking

 

[Pete7]

Wow that is some skilled sailing and docking

Absolutely and in gusts of 27 knots, me I would be a nervous wreck worrying about it all going pear shaped.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

So what changes are you planning for your yacht?

In my case, "the greatest talkers are often the least doers" is probably applicable to me.

A cruising chute that fits my boat and cruising needs - Action taken - Nothing.

Revised outboard well / and much lighter outboard
to enable plugged well when sailing. and zero drag. Action taken - Nothing.

New Years Sailing Resolutions - Many - Action taken zero

 

[William_H]

You didn't fancy doing this sort of thing then?

You tube

Nice video but I would never attempt any manouvering like that without a jib up to ensure seamless tacking. indeed I would not try without another crew. Certainly not in a crowded place with lots of shiny GRP to bang into. ol'will

 

[Sandy]

I was wondering: what would your ideal boat look like for engineless cruising?

A Boreal 47 Version 1, as I don't like the twin wheeled version.

As long as every tight marina had a RIB or two to manoeuvre boats about then your plan would work.

 

[dunedin]

Wow that is some skilled sailing and docking

No that was a muppet in that video who very nearly smashed into other boats when not at the helm.
Racers often sail into a marina berths, but they have multiple crew. And always have the mainsheet fully loose and sheeted in only by grabbing from the boom, so that it depowers instantly.

 

[Stemar]

No that was a muppet in that video who very nearly smashed into other boats when not at the helm.
Racers often sail into a marina berths, but they have multiple crew. And always have the mainsheet fully loose and sheeted in only by grabbing from the boom, so that it depowers instantly.

I'm inclined to agree. I didn't watch the whole thing, but the first few minutes, he just seemed to be taking back and forth and making next to no progress. A skilled approach would be pick your spot, get to it by whatever means is the most efficient, stop the boat, drop the hook and dig it in, hoist the ball and serve drinks. None of that faffing around.