Low carbon sailing

[Sea Change]

At the other end of the spectrum, Lyn and Larry Pardey made it work for the blue water stuff for many years. I think without solar . Extra care was needed close inshore and they used to stand well off as required . They were probably much better sailors than we are


It was rather old school sailing that required lots of patience and experience but unlikely to appeal to newer generations .

Although they would happily accept a tow.
As the saying goes, there are two types of blue water sailors- those who have towed the Pardeys in to harbour, and those who have towed them out

 

[dunedin]

I sail an older hull shape. Pre furling system there was a suit of sails, including a ghoster which meant it sailed well in light winds. Now with my furling Genoa it does not sail so fast in light winds.

I think a modern hull and sail plan, more or less delivers very low wind performance at least equal to the diesel engine. In stronger winds, likely better even if taking to a destination.

In reasonable wind, taking to a destination, compared to motoring dead into wind or even motor sailing, around 20NM, there is not much in it time wise.

I think we are all ready there. Electrical power via solar and battery capacity, is exceptional these days.

For me, a modern hull, modern rig, suit of sails for the very light conditions, solar, wind and water electric generators, larger capacity lithium tech batteries, electric cooking with cooking aids such as pressure cooker or the insulated pot thingies.

Modern navigation systems, weather systems and modern anchors can keep you out of lee shore dangers.

It’s a bit like electric cars, the tech is here for the majority of drivers needs and wants with less inconvenience that fuelling conventionally.

Is there a market for an engineless, efficient sailing boat?

Bluntly I would suggest no, not for a coastal cruising yacht. (Per ICOMIA and CA articles, we need to think in “use cases” - very different for a dayboat/race boat kept on a mooring, or doing a Golden Globe Race RTW.)

If you want to be green, the last thing you should do is buy a new boat, as that has a huge carbon footprint. Retain, reuse, recycle applies.
Also, instead of changing the boat, change the way you use it - don’t fly to your boat, don’t motor against the tide to keep to a preset schedule but await the tide, if the destination is upwind use the flappy things or go to a different destination.

There is an excellent case for boats having smaller “auxiliary“ engines compared to the beasts currently fitted. My 12m boat came with a 55hp engine, which is much bigger than needed. A few years ago it would have been 30hp, and probably 20hp would be plenty. There is no need to motor at 8 knots, when just below hull speed uses perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 the fuel (and running a smaller engine harder is better than pootling with a big engine).
And a small auxiliary engine for getting in and out of harbour does make electric propulsion more viable - a battery only system works if it is literally in or out of a marina, a serial hybrid for longer range. But again the cost is high and for existing boats bettter use the existing kit less frequently.

As has been discussed on here before, in the days when yachts were commonly engineless there weren’t marinas and finger berths. Plus there was a huge manpower and infrastructure of boatmen and dock staff to assist sailing craft in and out of harbours. They have long gone.

Finally, although we have a fast cruiser, and are regularly sailing upwind in 4-5 Knots true wind speed when everybody else is motoring, I don’t agree that a modern rig can equal an engine in light winds. AFAIK the power in the wind is roughly the square of the speed. Whilst a fast boat can make some progress in 4 kts wind, few can move in 3kts and even a racing dinghy is becalms in 2kts. And in any waves, all bets are off until at least 7-8 knots of breeze, even with a big rig.
And people say just wait, but in summer we have often experienced sustained periods of high pressure - sunny days, flat calm. These are just the times when I want to go out to St Kilda, explore the West side of Lewis/Harris, go round Muckle Flugga (and I have done so). None of these would have been possible under sail only - even though, as noted, we are always the first to stop the engine and sail when we get 5knts of usable zephyr.

 

[dunedin]

At the other end of the spectrum, Lyn and Larry Pardey made it work for the blue water stuff for many years. I think without solar . Extra care was needed close inshore and they used to stand well off as required . They were probably much better sailors than we are


It was rather old school sailing that required lots of patience and experience but unlikely to appeal to newer generations .

As Seachange says reportedly the Pardey’s were also notorious for asking for others to use their engines and boats to tow them in and out of harbours. And also apparently had a bit of a record of bashing things when trying to manoever under sail.
They weren’t always welcomed as arrivals by other boat owners.

 

[geem]

I suspect that the engines must be among the least significant 'carbon' contributing factors in sailing yachting, when you think about the energy and materials in modern yacht construction, all the electronics, fridges, cookers, aircon, and gadgetry/fittings, specialist clothing, etc. etc.

Yacht size would certainly be a major factor.

Add in the travel - almost all by car these days, and probably a bigger one than the owner might otherwise have chosen if they didn't need to cart round boat clutter.

Factor in a bigger house. sheds etc. for the boat gear and perhaps home workshop for maintenance.

Factor in marinas, and all that they entail.

Low carbon yachting might mean modest sized wooden boats on swinging moorings! Travel there by train, bringing only what you can carry under your arm, and you'll be allowed to have a Seagull o/b or Vire i/b!

Low carbon could also mean your GRP yacht could last 100 years. The energy used to build in the first place being a major factor.
A pal of mine built a 38ft epoxy ply yacht and sailed it from his home base in the Bahamas for 15 years, before he installed an engine, recovered from a sunken yacht after hurricane Irma went through Grenada is 2004. It took him another 5 years to actually install a prop shaft and have the engine running.
His boat was pretty flat bottomed with a carbon daggerboard and lifting rudder. It was built for the super shallow waters of the Bahamas but he also crossed the Atlantic a couple of times and the Pacific.
The boat spent its whole life at anchor or sailing. He would tow the boat into a marina when necessary with his 12 ft dinghy and 15hp engine, but this was a pretty rare thing

 

[Sea Change]

Ivan, not Irma?

 

[rotrax]

The harbour infrastructure was totally different in the days of sail. Smaller vessels could be moved into harbour with sweeps. Larger vessels, Thames Barge size were often warped into dock using 'warping piles'. The warps were taken to the piles by dinghy and the barges winch used to move it foward. As a boy in 1953 I saw this being carried out in Ramsgate harbour.

All these skills, personnel and warping posts have largely gone.

Having an engineless long keeler is something I have experienced after losing a prop on our previous boat, an Island Packet 350. The two hour and a half hour passage from Glenarm to Bangor Marina took 12 hours. Trying to sail into the boat lift dock, unlit, at night in 20knts plus found us missing by inches and ending up pinned to the outer harbour wall. I attached the dinghy and used the outboard to get into position ready to be lifted the following morning.

Sailing an enginless boat in crowded situations is asking for trouble.

IMHO, of course.

 

[geem]

Ivan, not Irma?

Correct. My bad

 

[Stemar]

Portsmouth harbour requires an engine to enter the harbour, unless you plead your case to KHM for a one off exemption.

I've done this, and still bare the mental scars!

A westerly F6-7 and a low fuel level that meant all the crud from the bottom of the tank got stirred up during a bumpy beat back from Langston. The engine died around No 4 buoy, so I asked QHM, as they were then, for permission to enter under sail, hoping they'd say no and the Harbour Patrol would tow me in, but no such luck. The wind varied from moment to moment, blowing round Fort Blockhouse clockwise or anticlockwise, or straight over from the west, or over me and curled back from the east at random. Impossible to stay in the small boat channel. This in a Snapdragon 24. Then the Normandy came out to play...

I fitted twin fuel filters in parallel that I could switch in seconds within the month.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

I seem to recall Maurice Griffiths reporting making steady progress for miles without great effort, albeit at a modest pace, using a single sweep in a boat about (?) 30 foot LOA.

Getting the rowlock, thole pin or whatever set up solidly at the right height, fore/aft and lateral position so you could make fulll use of the length of the cockpit and best leverage of the sweep would be critical, as would having a long enough sweep that you were propelling the boat forward rather than spinning it around its own axis.

I don't think sculling would work for distance work, but should be fine for moving about e.g. in harbour with a bit of practice, so long as the boat is not too large. Again, having a suitable and solidly fixed fitting at the right height, and a sculling oar of the right weight and length for the boat, would be critical to effectiveness. I know in principle you can scull without a fitting, just bearing the oar against the transom (sorry folks with an open backed cockpit!), but it would take a great deal of practice, if ever, before that became as efficient and effective as a decent rowlock or yuloh.

I used to carry a long oar as back up on a 27' boat weighing 3 1/2 tons. After some experimenting , I could create balance using a strop on a sheet winch as a rowlock. Pushing forward, it was easy to use bodyweight and in flat water, with little little wind could keep up about 1 - 2 knots for some time. It was also excellent as a back up rudder.

Even when I got a bit better at it, sculling over the stern just didn't work for me.

I used it once to get onto my mooring after engine problems with tide to suit.

It was a damn nuisance on deck and decided it wasn't worth carrying it.

.


.

 

[jdc]

I've towed my boat from the rowing dinghy - we had to as we were doing the 3-Peaks race at the time and the wind dissapearted as we were sailing into Caernarfon. I could just make 0.6 knots, provided someone was on the foredeck of the boat being towed, holding the tow line so that it didn't snatch. It was a year of almost no wind, and we spent several adverse tides at anchor, in 75m depth or so! But we made it; through the swellies (under spinnaker in about 5 kts of wind), all the way to from Barmouth to Fort William via Whitehaven and then round the MoK and the sound of Jura. The Corran narrows were fun, going backwards against the land while forwards against the stream.

Later that summer, when I was sailing home to Falmouth from Corpach (near Fort William), the engine packed up at about the Isle of Man, and we just carried on S, then past Longships and tacking past the Lizard and finally anchoring off St Just, where we repaired the engine (ie found the air leak in the fuel system).

So I think it is possible without an engine if you _have_ to. The boat is a 42' cutter, weighing about 13 tonnes with a fairly long encapsulated keel, but not a 'long keel' per se since it has a separate skeg. But not embarrassed by the conditions and we didn't finish too badly (middle of the fleet in the 3 peaks race). We've also crossed the Atlantic a couple of times, and Biscay lots, so the sea kindliness is a plus despite the boat being rather heavy to row! For reliable rowing I'd have fabricated a rigger and used a proper rowing blade.





Towing in the sound of Jura

 

[doug748]

Didn't the National Sailing School have a fleet of engineless Hunters for sail training? I think youngsters were let loose on them and it worked well.

You would need something with a bit of heft without being too heavy. Can't imagine sailing a Pogo onto a mooring singlehanded in a stiff breeze; maybe take all the sail off and go downwind towing a bucket? I sometime wonder how such boats get out of a marina, in strong winds, even with an engine.

Folkboat is perfect + any of the lighter derivatives. Maybe a First as mentioned above, for the modernists.

.

 

[thinwater]

Google "Everglades Challenge" and "Race to Alaska." No engines, long races along the coast, in and around barrier islands, with lots of anchoring and such.

 

[thinwater]

I've taken boats in and out of harbors and even slips with no engine a good many times, the result of engine problems. Sometimes ropes were involved.

In a world with no engines I'm guessing marinas would be laid out very differently. Mooring field would have greater spacing. And I suspect minor contact would be accepted with more grace, as part of life when there is no engine and no brakes. More rub rails and no fussy pants over a mark on the gel coat.

For now, the challenge is just to motor less. The real difficulty, then, is to use the fuel in a short enough period that it does not go bad.

• Keep the filler pipe gasket perfect. The leading cause of water in fuel.
• Vent filters. Air drying filters. Silica gel is best. Carbon is required in the US on newer gas engines. Not required for diesel, but they reduce breathing and keeps the fuel VERY dry.
• Use a quality anti-corrosion additive. Corrosion adds metal ions, metal ions catalyze fuel instability. Additive for bug in diesel.
• Don't fill the tank. But you may need a vent drier and additive.

Just as you need to change the oil, gasoline and fuel need to turn over.

 

[MisterBaxter]

I think if I was going to sail without an engine I'd like a Heard 28. Big enough to be comfy for a long stay but small enough to shift with a sweep or yuloh; sails surprisingly well but would heave to comfortably in a gale, drifting square across the wind at a knot or two; wouldn't blow around out of control when maneuvering at close quarters. I'd get an outrageously big jackyard topsail and a huge, light jib for light wind days, and maybe even a running square sail (as described with great enthusiasm by Claud Worth, who wrote that he wouldn't cruise without one). Hopefully a little rigid dinghy could be made to fit on deck.
Either that or something cheap and simple like a Hunter Duette, which sails beautifully and is light enough to be manhandled around with oars and warps.

 

[Supertramp]

The harbour infrastructure was totally different in the days of sail. Smaller vessels could be moved into harbour with sweeps. Larger vessels, Thames Barge size were often warped into dock using 'warping piles'. The warps were taken to the piles by dinghy and the barges winch used to move it foward. As a boy in 1953 I saw this being carried out in Ramsgate harbour.

All these skills, personnel and warping posts have largely gone.

Having an engineless long keeler is something I have experienced after losing a prop on our previous boat, an Island Packet 350. The two hour and a half hour passage from Glenarm to Bangor Marina took 12 hours. Trying to sail into the boat lift dock, unlit, at night in 20knts plus found us missing by inches and ending up pinned to the outer harbour wall. I attached the dinghy and used the outboard to get into position ready to be lifted the following morning.

Sailing an enginless boat in crowded situations is asking for trouble.

IMHO, of course.

I agree.

Part of the problem is the pride we take in appearance, combined with the relatively fragile materials and scantlings used.

Go back to the days of sail and harbours were packed with heavily built wooden ships which would just bounce off each other. Scottish fishing harbours used to be terrifying on a Friday or Saturday night as all the drifters (under engine, I'm not that old) rushed in and piled up 4 or 5 deep or even right across a harbour. Plastic used to feel very fragile. With different harbour layouts and more tolerance of (light) contact I am sure it can be done today.

Like others I have no guilt using an engine as the fuel used is a drop compared to what my car or house uses. The pressure on low carbon sailing will be on new boats having to conform to tightening legislation and increasing green mindfulness in buyers.

That said, little beats the feeling of sailing off and onto a mooring.

 

[Supertramp]

This should hasten along the legislation....

 

[Sea Change]

I think small is definitely the way to go.
I've almost completely stopped using the outboard on my tender and just sail it everywhere. It needs patience, especially for the last hundred metres when you're trying to reach the dinghy dock in-between buildings or large boats, and there's no wind. A bit of gentle tiller waggling usually does the job.

 

[Sea Change]

This should hasten along the legislation....

View attachment 170573

That motored past me a few weeks ago. Friend of a friend works on it. I don't believe they get the sails out very often.
It has a 75m support vessel (motor, obviously) where the unsightly helipad and extra crew and supplies can be kept.

See picture. We're the boat in front

 

[LittleSister]

I've towed my boat from the rowing dinghy . . . I could just make 0.6 knots, provided someone was on the foredeck of the boat being towed, holding the tow line so that it didn't snatch.

Apparently the trick is to use a chain as (or part of) the towing warp. The weight and catenary of the chain evens out the snatching.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Bluntly I would suggest no, not for a coastal cruising yacht. (Per ICOMIA and CA articles, we need to think in “use cases” - very different for a dayboat/race boat kept on a mooring, or doing a Golden Globe Race RTW.)

If you want to be green, the last thing you should do is buy a new boat, as that has a huge carbon footprint. Retain, reuse, recycle applies.
Also, instead of changing the boat, change the way you use it - don’t fly to your boat, don’t motor against the tide to keep to a preset schedule but await the tide, if the destination is upwind use the flappy things or go to a different destination.

There is an excellent case for boats having smaller “auxiliary“ engines compared to the beasts currently fitted. My 12m boat came with a 55hp engine, which is much bigger than needed. A few years ago it would have been 30hp, and probably 20hp would be plenty. There is no need to motor at 8 knots, when just below hull speed uses perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 the fuel (and running a smaller engine harder is better than pootling with a big engine).
And a small auxiliary engine for getting in and out of harbour does make electric propulsion more viable - a battery only system works if it is literally in or out of a marina, a serial hybrid for longer range. But again the cost is high and for existing boats bettter use the existing kit less frequently.

As has been discussed on here before, in the days when yachts were commonly engineless there weren’t marinas and finger berths. Plus there was a huge manpower and infrastructure of boatmen and dock staff to assist sailing craft in and out of harbours. They have long gone.

Finally, although we have a fast cruiser, and are regularly sailing upwind in 4-5 Knots true wind speed when everybody else is motoring, I don’t agree that a modern rig can equal an engine in light winds. AFAIK the power in the wind is roughly the square of the speed. Whilst a fast boat can make some progress in 4 kts wind, few can move in 3kts and even a racing dinghy is becalms in 2kts. And in any waves, all bets are off until at least 7-8 knots of breeze, even with a big rig.
And people say just wait, but in summer we have often experienced sustained periods of high pressure - sunny days, flat calm. These are just the times when I want to go out to St Kilda, explore the West side of Lewis/Harris, go round Muckle Flugga (and I have done so). None of these would have been possible under sail only - even though, as noted, we are always the first to stop the engine and sail when we get 5knts of usable zephyr.

All you have done is applied your current use paradigm to the idea and dismissed it without any thought towards the OPs request.

I have sailed to St Kilda 3 x times, so I don’t agree with your windless days scenario. In fact I struggle with that whole part of your post. A motor boat might suit you better.

I sail, I rarely motor, and my arrival times at upwind destinations like the Snd of Mull is about 30 minutes to an hour behind those who overtake me under motor.

In the days of the big fleets in West Highland week from the Clyde to Oban, I don’t recall passage times being wildly longer than motoring times when I delivered the yacht back, usually under time pressure.

In the past, sailing in tight spaces was a routine activity for me, on and off the pontoon and into harbours, but my skills are less now and the activity prohibited.

The 3 x Peaks race is another analogue.

In answering the OPs query, the tech and carbon offsetting methods exist to sail efficiently and carbon free without an engine, which would not be an inconvenience with a bit of adjustment to leisure sailing attitudes.

What paradigm anchor do you use?