Low carbon sailing

[MisterBaxter]

Reading the thread about whether electric propulsion is actually green made me think about the obvious way to minimise emissions, which is not to have an engine at all (or not to use one, anyway). I was wondering: what would your ideal boat look like for engineless cruising?
This is purely a thought experiment about design and usage, not an argument for or against anything or a debate about the practicality in real life. But it can be interesting to take an idea seriously and see where it leads you.
In the days before yachts had engines, they were rigged to spread huge amounts of sail in very light airs, via yard topsails, balloon jibs, running squaresails and so on. Are contemporary rigs too small for very light airs, because people use the engine instead?
Narrow fin keels work the best for upwind speed, but longer keels are better at not drifting sideways when stationary or moving very slowly. With no engine, I'd want to be able to heave to in comfort and safety well offshore rather than risk a lee shore. Does that argue for a long keel?
We'd end up spending more time at anchor with no engine. Would a heavier-displacement boat be more comfortable for that in terms of the motion?
All that seems to me to point towards a more traditional boat, perhaps unsurprisingly as they were designed for life without engines. But maybe a fast, light, handy boat would be better?
It used to be commonplace to move yachts of up to 10 tons around with a scull or sweep. Has anyone actually tried that? I've known of engineless Folkboats that managed pretty well with oars. Maybe the answer is a small, simple, thoroughbred sailor like that?

 

[B27]

A boat for engineless cruising would IMHO need to be fairly light and very good upwind, including short tacking.
I'm not sure long keels are necessarily better at not drifting sideways.

Maybe we'll end up running our low tech yacht engines on chip oil?

 

[LittleSister]

I suspect that the engines must be among the least significant 'carbon' contributing factors in sailing yachting, when you think about the energy and materials in modern yacht construction, all the electronics, fridges, cookers, aircon, and gadgetry/fittings, specialist clothing, etc. etc.

Yacht size would certainly be a major factor.

Add in the travel - almost all by car these days, and probably a bigger one than the owner might otherwise have chosen if they didn't need to cart round boat clutter.

Factor in a bigger house. sheds etc. for the boat gear and perhaps home workshop for maintenance.

Factor in marinas, and all that they entail.

Low carbon yachting might mean modest sized wooden boats on swinging moorings! Travel there by train, bringing only what you can carry under your arm, and you'll be allowed to have a Seagull o/b or Vire i/b!

 

[Snowgoose-1]

I would perceive a new revenue stream for the RYA in giving single oar sculling lessons. You would have to if continuing with a marina berth.

Seriously, Charles Stock (Shoal Waters) not that long ago did it for 50 years whilst holding down a full time job and covering impressive distances in a season.

Boat was 16' though and he was prepared to sleep according to the tides .

It could still happen now if you wanted to do it as a weekend sailor. The area chosen for sailing would have to be chosen very carefully to suit.

I would go for the Parker/Seal lifting keel range for versatility, reasonable comfort and sailing prowess .

Great Thread.

 

[MisterBaxter]

My dad had a book about the Bristol Channel trading ketches, and a phrase sticks in my mind from an interview with one of the old skippers - sailing "by anchor, tide and teapot." In other words, down channel with the tide for six or eight hours, drop the anchor, put the kettle on and relax for four or five hours... Then repeat as needed. I guess that's part of the attitude one would need to cultivate.

 

[Boathook]

I would hate to try to row or scull my cat and drifting around mid channel.

As @LittleSister said the fuel used by the average sailing boat is very small compared with all the other components.

 

[LittleSister]

I seem to recall Maurice Griffiths reporting making steady progress for miles without great effort, albeit at a modest pace, using a single sweep in a boat about (?) 30 foot LOA.

Getting the rowlock, thole pin or whatever set up solidly at the right height, fore/aft and lateral position so you could make fulll use of the length of the cockpit and best leverage of the sweep would be critical, as would having a long enough sweep that you were propelling the boat forward rather than spinning it around its own axis.

I don't think sculling would work for distance work, but should be fine for moving about e.g. in harbour with a bit of practice, so long as the boat is not too large. Again, having a suitable and solidly fixed fitting at the right height, and a sculling oar of the right weight and length for the boat, would be critical to effectiveness. I know in principle you can scull without a fitting, just bearing the oar against the transom (sorry folks with an open backed cockpit!), but it would take a great deal of practice, if ever, before that became as efficient and effective as a decent rowlock or yuloh.

 

[dunedin]

Yes there used to be lots of engineless yachts. But let’s not forget a lot of engineless yachts ended up ship wrecked - and many of their crews were lost. This was not good for the carbon lifecycle - nor the carbon life forms.

But I was forced to have an engineless yacht it might be more like a Pogo than a Folkboat - as would need to be fast in light winds and able to make good m ground to windward.

 

[LittleSister]

Yes there used to be lots of engineless yachts. But let’s not forget a lot of engineless yachts ended up ship wrecked - and many of their crews were lost. This was not good for the carbon lifecycle - nor the carbon life forms.

But I was forced to have an engineless yacht it might be more like a Pogo than a Folkboat - as would need to be fast in light winds and able to make good m ground to windward.

Lots of engineless working craft were lost, because of the pressures of commerce, but I suspect rather few engineless leisure yachts were. Sailing wasn't then a desperately dangerous pastime, but required different expectations and mindsets than are typical today. Armed with our much improved weather forecasting and navigation tools we should be able to make it near as safe as today.

I also disagree that the loss of leisure sailors would be bad from a purely carbon counting perspective - more likely it would be significantly advantageous, carbon-wise, for a goodly number of us to perish prematurely, even though it might be thought a tragedy on a personal level.

 

[dunedin]

Lots of engineless working craft were lost, because of the pressures of commerce, but I suspect rather few engineless leisure yachts were. Sailing wasn't then a desperately dangerous pastime, but required different expectations and mindsets than are typical today. Armed with our much improved weather forecasting and navigation tools we should be able to make it near as safe as today.

I also disagree that the loss of leisure sailors would be bad from a purely carbon counting perspective - more likely it would be significantly advantageous, carbon-wise, for a goodly number of us to perish prematurely, even though it might be thought a tragedy on a personal level.

If you read about early yachting pioneers, being wrecked on a shore was not a particularly rare occurrence

 

[BabaYaga]

which is not to have an engine at all (or not to use one, anyway). I was wondering: what would your ideal boat look like for engineless cruising?

I think the ideal boat for cruising in a low carbon emissions future is a sailing boat
1. that already exists or will be built within the next decade or so (unlike something that is built/created at the point in time when the restrictions of a low carbon society is fully upon us)
2. on which you enjoy spending time aboard, whether sailing at low speed in light winds or in windy conditions, or resting at anchor (because fuel will be limited or very expensive)
3. that is kept in a location that is interesting/rewarding from a cruising perspective
4. that is kept in a location that is not far from where you live or that can be easily reached by low carbon transportation (so if sailing is important in your life you may have to move)
If these conditions are met I do not see why cruising as a leisure activity should not go fairly well along with limited carbon emissions. But we will likely have to change our mindsets with regard to planning, cruising to a schedule etc.

 

[William_H]

My own 21ft trailer sailer sails extremely well such that I have not carried an engine for 15 years or so. The drop fin keel is about 1.1m deep by about 420cm chord out of a flat bottom. So not so good at heave too but easy to tack. Now my sailing is just weekly club racing of about 2.5 hrs and yes there is a support boat able to tow me home in case of lack of wind. But mostly with a large sail area and light boat I have only been towed home once in last 30 years. yes I carry paddles that can be used as oars and she can be moved quite well in calm conditions. (tides not so much of a worry here).
I tow the dinghy to the water using a 24v mobility scooter which is charged by solar panels at home. Pretty much carbon free if we allow that the carbon to produce scooter, boat and sails was all done in the long past. ol'will

 

[Rum Run]

I think the key to low carbon yachting will be to use an existing hull so as to get best use from the existing sunk-(carbon) cost, possibly with a larger but easily reefed rig.
The engine issue can be dealt with by continuing to use infernal combustion but burning synthetic fuel made from green hydrogen and captured atmospheric carbon dioxide. The tech for this does exist but is still very expensive.
However as air travel and heavy plant is unlikely to go battery storage with current EV technology, we can probably piggyback off whatever liquid fuel they use.
In the tropics with a vast solar PV array maybe electric motors will work in some use cases, but I suspect not in cloudy UK, except for showpony daysailors bought by the very well off.
I dunno about big planing mobos unless the synthetic fuel is available and affordable to them.
Like many, I use much more fuel getting to the boat than I use on it.

 

[Sea Change]

How does propelling a yacht using long sweeps compare to simply towing it with your dinghy? I've really moved fairly heavy yachts behind my dinghy, in calm conditions. It used to be done with the square riggers too.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I sail an older hull shape. Pre furling system there was a suit of sails, including a ghoster which meant it sailed well in light winds. Now with my furling Genoa it does not sail so fast in light winds.

I think a modern hull and sail plan, more or less delivers very low wind performance at least equal to the diesel engine. In stronger winds, likely better even if taking to a destination.

In reasonable wind, taking to a destination, compared to motoring dead into wind or even motor sailing, around 20NM, there is not much in it time wise.

I think we are all ready there. Electrical power via solar and battery capacity, is exceptional these days.

For me, a modern hull, modern rig, suit of sails for the very light conditions, solar, wind and water electric generators, larger capacity lithium tech batteries, electric cooking with cooking aids such as pressure cooker or the insulated pot thingies.

Modern navigation systems, weather systems and modern anchors can keep you out of lee shore dangers.

It’s a bit like electric cars, the tech is here for the majority of drivers needs and wants with less inconvenience that fuelling conventionally.

Is there a market for an engineless, efficient sailing boat?

 

[Stemar]

One thing an engineless boat won't do is live in a marina, unless the marina offers a tug service to get in and out. I reckon it'll also be a lot smaller than most today. Mum & Dad, and Grandma and Grandad even more so, on a 36 footer would find it hard work without an engine; they'll want something that will do what it's told when you pull on a rope.

 

[TLouth7]

I have sailed engineless (Hunter's Yard) yachts on the Norfolk broads, and a couple of seasons without an engine in my Sigma 33. For me there are two critical features for engineless sailing:

- Nimble sailing ability. When manoeuvring in a channel or harbour you need to guarantee that you will make it through a tack, need to be able to bear away fast without broaching etc. A boat which slides sideways at low speed is not capable of sailing off a lee pontoon. The wider the range of windspeed/sea state this nimbleness applies to the better.

- A boat that is light enough to manhandle. If you sail onto a mooring or pontoon you need to be able to control the boat if she still has a bit of way on or starts to pay off; this is especially true if short-handed. You may also need to warp the boat, for example I often turn my boat around to allow sailing off the pontoon in the optimum direction. When sailing off a mooring it is useful to be able to pull the boat forward to gain steerage; it takes a lot of room to drop away astern and then turn. The Sigma is very much at the top end of this.

Lots of modern boats in the 26 - 30 foot range would meet these criteria. So then optimum depends on your other needs: singlehanded setup, cabin space etc. Personally if I was in the market I'd get a First of some kind.

 

[johnalison]

I always selected engineless boats on the Broads, but you can go a long way with a quant pole. In an account of his travels Smollett records waiting at Dover for over a week for winds to make it possible to get to Boulogne. Cruising without an engine would be the preserve of the retired only, which, come to think of it, might be an improvement.

I reckon that almost any style of sailing boat would be suitable, from Wayfarers to gaff cutters such as would have been common in the ‘30s. If nothing else, marinas on Sunday afternoons would be very entertaining places and they could probably charge the public to come and watch the fun.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

At the other end of the spectrum, Lyn and Larry Pardey made it work for the blue water stuff for many years. I think without solar . Extra care was needed close inshore and they used to stand well off as required . They were probably much better sailors than we are


It was rather old school sailing that required lots of patience and experience but unlikely to appeal to newer generations .

 

[Pete7]

One thing an engineless boat won't do is live in a marina, unless the marina offers a tug service to get in and out.

I would dread trying to sail into a strange tight marina without and engine. Portsmouth harbour requires an engine to enter the harbour, unless you plead your case to KHM for a one off exemption.

We followed a school training yacht sailing in very light winds up the R Beaulieu one afternoon. The traffic jam in both directions was impressive.

Pete