Looking for a Boat but advice needed re the Red Diesel Debacle!

[SoulReaver]

Hi All

I have reached a point in my life where I would like to purchase my first boat. As such I have been merrily drooling over various options on yachtworld and have set my sights on a Sunseeker Camargue 55. The funny (not so funny) thing is that I casually followed a related link and ended up at motor boat monthly reading a blog about the red diesel rule coming into force in Nov 2008 and when I checked the specs on this boat it has a tank of 2850 litres!! Am I wrong in assuming that come Nov 2008 it will cost 3 grand to fill her up? If not more! If this is the case will this not kill this type of boat or at least reduce its costs post Nov 2008 quite a lot? Should I wait and this year buy a yacht instead and wait and see what happens to the motor boat market?

Your advice will be greatly appreciated as I have never bought a boat before and do not want to make a BIG mistake on my first one for sure.

Mark.

 

[Chris_d]

It probably depends if you think £3000 is lot for fill up, if you do and so does nearly everybody else, your right the motorboat market will crash. If you don't think thats a lot of money then don't worry.

I don't however think anybody can answer your question until 2009 , but if you like sailboats then that has to be the risk free option.

 

[SoulReaver]

Hi Chris

Whilst I can afford the boat I do fall into the category of thinking 3 grand+ to fill her up is ridiculous and feel it will crash the value of these boats overnight. I just wanted to see what you more experienced guys thought.

I think your right on the crash and the new Oceanis 50 is looking a firm fav for me at the moment at least until this is all sorted one way or another!

Mark.

 

[Chris_d]

Hi Mark,

boats are very emotional purchases and normal sensible criteria don't really apply. So if a Sunseeker is what you really want you'll probably buy it anyway, however they are very fashionable types of boat and big old Sunseekers loose money regardless of the red diesel issue. Some people on here will tell you to just go for it and hang the cost, lifes too short and all that. However if you are the type that has to feel happy with all aspects of your purchase, then I would say its not the boat for you. If your gut is telling you now its too much, then it won't get any better in 2009, whatever happens fuel prices are not going down.

Only my opinion of course, but I think large shaft driven powerboats of this size are only affordable in the UK because of Red diesel. The increased cost of fuel will turn them into nothing more than very expensive holiday homes by the sea, only good for the odd blast to the beach and back.

Time will tell.

 

[ericrobinson]

Hi Mark

I think everything's been said about what might happen to red diesel next year. It's a sobering thought that you might be paying £7/mile if you dare to open the throttles.
A note of caution, though, if I may. Nothing could be more different than a Camargue 55 and an Oceanis 50, except the price. If you fancy sailing, great, but you'll need an army of like-minded friends available when you are, to do winchgrinding and spinnaker snuffing or whatever it is you have to do to make headway (actually starting the engine is the most reliable). I would not want to discourage you from whatever takes your fancy but bear in mind buying a boat just while waiting for things to pan out might be very expensive. Aside from the depreciation, selling a boat can take several months and generally costs 6% agent's commission.
I would definitely try sailing/driving both your chosen boats before taking your purchase decision. These are very big boats for a first time purchase. Also, think about marina charges and maintenance which will add substantially to the fuel bill.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[red_diesel]

Hi Mark,
Wow a Sunseeker Camargue 55 would certainly be jumping in with both feet. My advice for what it is worth is that you should be looking at this the other way round. Start with the type of boating you want to do, fast planing, displacement, semi-displacement etc, based on how far and where you want to cruise to, type of motion you and your crew prefer etc etc and also in part at least on how much you can comfortably spend on running it, ie. moorings, fuel etc. Do not look at the boat/purchase price 1st as this will be quite misleading. For example large old power boats, can seem like good value, but the running costs are another matter, even at today's fuel price, not to mention a South Coast mooring! If you want to cruise fast, and you are not called Mervyn King, a smaller boat might be a good idea to start with. (even my little 32 footer still gobbles up 4 litres of the red stuff evey mile) I have known several buyers buy too big only to discover they can not stomach the running costs, and loose a fortune when they are forced to sell. A smaller boat should prove easier to sell if it proves a mistake or you decide to trade up. As for sailing, a different ball game entirely! Nuff said!

 

[gjgm]

the big boat manufacturers are worldwide of course, so as long as there are wealthy people, and there are alot,then new boat purchases will probably not be affected that much. Nearly new is often in demand, because you will probably have to wait 12 months plus for someone to build it (they are not in stock), as there is usually some price support for nearly new, as people want something to play with meantime. Maybe the dealer "assists" here. However, once you are out of that environment, maybe 3 years and older, you are in with the sharks.
Red pricing will be an issue, but then so is the economy,house prices,China etc etc. One question we are all asking ourselves is,even if we can afford to fill 'er up,how much of the fun is going to bleed away.
But many people dont really use the boat that much. OK, maybe on this forum its more mileage than normal, and maybe in the first flush of ownership, people do use it more. Still, the rule of thumb is 100 hours a year.. but you dont see many 5 year old boats even with that many engine hours- and even then that includes messing about the marina etc.
Bear in mind at 25kts, you eat up a few miles in a couple of hours. So, maybe, you really only do 50-70 hours a year.Can you live with that cost?
My suspicion is that while some boats will come under pressure, during 2009 most people will modify their boating habits a bit, and see how they feel at the year end. Its not that unusual fr people to do maybe one "trip" a year, and the rest is going ten miles to lunch or anchor.After all, if you only fill it up once a year.. it wasnt that much really!
One thing you should stick on your bathroom mirror.. if you are new to boating, then it almost certainly isnt quite what you think it is. Starting with something smaller and popular means you can sell it on when you discover quite what it is you really wanted /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[SoulReaver]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the helpful comments. I should have stated a bit of history I guess. Im ex Submariner and have done lots of sailing on bareboat charters over the years with myself as skipper so the yacht is not a problem. Thing is I have like a lot of people always dreamed of owning a big fat Sunseeker ha ha! My plan is to keep it near to my villa in the Balearics and hopefully charter it out a bit to offset some of the yearly costs. I like the THOUGHT of a Superhawk and also the Camargue but of both are wildly different boats of course and having owned some Ferraris I understand that owning is different to dreaming /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Being totally realistic I am guessing I would not even get 6 weeks personal use per year as I travel a lot.

I am leaning towards getting a yacht and seeing how this pans out in 09 now to be honest.

Mark.

 

[Chris_d]

Red diesel is a UK issue only, if your berthing in the Balearics just go for it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ybwsharcom]

Even if you make the calculations for the UK instead of the Balearics, the fuel prices COULD still be considered bearable (!). Try this: Solent to Dartmouth, say 200 miles there and back. A 55ft would do about 0.8 mpg at an enjoyable cruising speed, which makes about 250 gals there and back = approx 1100-1200 litres. At £1.20/L that would be about £1400. Add say £600-700 for berthing fees for a fortnight's holiday, and you have a 2-week family holiday costing you around £2000-ish. Say 4 on board and that's £500 each. Assuming my maths are about right, then I'm almost convincing myself that it makes financial sense. Not sure I would want to do it for a weekend though!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Okay, you're right, anyone with any sense will buy a sailing boat instead.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
you have a 2-week family holiday costing you around £2000-ish. Say 4 on board and that's £500 each. Assuming my maths are about right, then I'm almost convincing myself that it makes financial sense
>>>
Uncompetitive with sunny fortnight in Majorca via SleazyJet

 

[ybwsharcom]

In order to put a brave face on the red diesel issue I also sidestepped any allowance for capital costs, interest rates, depreciation, annual berthing, insurance, and servicing for a 55ft Sunseeker. Too scary to work that one out (£15k-£30k p.a.?) Yep, I think it's safe to assume that big motorboating is probably not the most prudent way to spend one's money!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

The sums quoted are used by the socialist EU and Grabber Gordon's glove puppet to explain that "these leeches have so much cash they won't notice a bit more on fuel".

 

[lenseman]

[ QUOTE ]
and when I checked the specs on this boat it has a tank of 2850 litres!! Am I wrong in assuming that come Nov 2008 it will cost 3 grand to fill her up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hiya Mark, welcome to YBW forums. I have been interested in this market for the past 2 years and more importantly and not often mentioned is another fundimental.

How many engines, cruising speed and number of litres an hour per engine.

I did look at a boat the other week and discovered the fuel consumption was 45 GALLONS per hour at 17 knots cruising (top speed 25 knots! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I created an Excel Spreadsheet to do the maths and I am now looking at a full displacement motor yacht which has a top speed around 6 knots and a tank capacity of 2500 litres with those sort of figures I can expect a range of 2,000 miles. I have a very real reason to go for range over top speed. It might be worth thinking about

Once you go semi-displacement or full plane, then your fuel will disappear as if being drunk through a straw. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Good luck

 

[adrianm]

True for planing boats as most of them are a handful at displacement speeds for long periods but a good semi-displacement should provide similiar consumption figures at hull speed with the advantage of a turn of speed should it be required.

Mine certainly does.

 

[red_diesel]

The downside is at 6 knots it takes an awfully long time to get anywhere, and in the UK with the ofen short good weather windows we have it can mean the difference between having a holiday or being stuck in port, whereas at 20 knots you can cover a lot of distance in a few hours. For example, we had a great summer cruise this year because we had the speed. I remember stopping in Weymouth where the MBM cruiseing club had been stuck for a week in August because some of the boats were too slow and did not want to be out in the rough conditions for a long slow leg whereas the faster boats would have been happy to have made a dash for it, just as we did. I think if we had been stuck in Weymouth for a week the crew would have been a tad unhappy to say the least.

 

[jmmt]

Wait a minute! I thought I was Red Diesel...http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/icons/confused.gif
confused

 

[mrbloto]

ibelive that the sudden interest of the red diesel by the revinue has got some thing to do with the upsurge of diesel cars on the road. in the last 10 years and no doubt the rise in the use of red diesel, i used to be able to walk into an oil depot and buy 25 litres in a drum, not any more they know that its been used by cars, unscrupolus people will use the cheapest they can, and have you noticed the price of cooking oil going up, its just not a level playing field anymore

 

[red_diesel]

Brothers separated at birth perhaps?!?!