Long term on a Sadler 29

Slow_boat

Slow_boat

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In a year or two swmbo and I are looking at setting off for a few months, then see what happens, on our Sadler 29 twin keeler. The idea is to see if we really like it and if we do, figure what we require from our long-term cruising boat. We will doing coast-hopping day sails towards the med or through the canals then bimbel around the med. then wherever we fancy. I've done the adventure/ocean stuff in my youth and to be honest am not really fussed about doing it again.

The boat is in pretty standard trim apart from making the bed in the main cabin a massive double by use of removable slats from Ikea.

What other gear/mods should I consider before we go?

Having looked at the favorite gadget post, I don't have room for all that stuff, I intend an oversized Rocna, new chain (how many meters?) and a plug in fridge with thermal cover to sit at the head of the quarter berth, solar panels and that's about it unless there are other things we really need to get. (extra long mooring lines? fenderboard/gangplank,that kind of thing)
 
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The only thing I would say, because there are so many mods people might suggest, is make sure you have a decent sun awning because you'll spend a lot of time in the cockpit both at anchor and alongside. I'm sure you've experienced it, the outdoor life..:D If you can get it made up and trial rig it a few times before getting down to the Med: it would be useful.
 
As you probably realise your boat is at the bottom end of what is comfortable for two and the lack of space limits the amount of gear you can carry. For the canal trip bicycles would be useful. Once you get to hot climes then shade and means of keeping food cool become essential. So, bimini/sunshade and fridge. You will do far more motoring than sailing so a good engine is essential as is adequate fuel capacity. Add to that a calorifier for hot water and good battery capacity with suitable charging facilities. Pressure water systems are useful and you will probably need to increase your water capacity. A holding tank, although not essential unless you want to go to Turkey, is desirable, not only for convenience but because it is likely to become mandatory in some countries in the future.

Anchoring is a key activity, so a modern anchor, windlass and a kedge are needed. Most anchoring in harbour is stern to so the boat needs to be good in reverse and you need to have a way of boarding the boat from the stern (or bow which some prefer). If you want to maximise your time sailing then large light weather sails are useful, but you run into storage problems

Probably the best investment is a weeks bareboating in somewhere nice like the Ionian where the sailing is not too demanding and you will learn a lot about living on a boat in hot climates. You might find that you need to re-assess the suitability of the Sadler and if you want to make the commitment change it for a bit bigger more modern boat for the space and ease of handling. You may find the cost of preparing the boat ends up out of proportion to its value and it might be cheaper to buy a more suitable boat. For example, you could easily spend £10k on the Sadler which is probably worth around £25k, when for £45-50k you could get a very well equipped 35 footer.

Only suggestions as people undertake such projects in a whole range of boats. There is no "ideal", but the compromises are less in the larger boats. However, if your budget is limited you may judge it better to give it a go and accept the limitations!

BTW there is masses of information on the subject - this forum, books, regular magazine articles and individual blogs. Once you start doing research you will find the sources.
 
Thanks for that. I'd overlooked anchor windlass.

The idea is to go with what we've got unless something else (Seahahk is the favorite so far) bites us on the bum. That way we've both got practical experience to know what's going to niggle and what niggles are going to become major problems, so we can take that into account for the bigger boat. We'll have about £50k plus current boat but we want to make sure we get the right one first time.

Plus, of course, I'm to tight to spend a lot on marinas and smaller boats are cheaper to park!
 
Lot of merit in that approach, but living on a cramped boat for long periods may put you off! With the sort of budget for the ultimate boat that you might want to spend, I would skip the 30 year old type boat. Centre cockpits, for all their merits are perhaps not the ideal for Med use. The "outside" is just as important as the inside and a big cockpit with walk through transom makes lazy life in the sun much more pleasant.

My shallow draft keel Bavaria 37 3 cabin is the 21st century compromise of space, performance and comfy living. This and similar boats are available for around £50k and in addition to being better to live on have the benefit of up to date gear. Now we have stopped Med cruising I have looked at buying a "proper" English Channel boat such as a Westerly or Moody but decided none that I have seen meet my standards of condition and equipment.

As to marinas, once you get east of Italy you will spend little time in marinas, so the higher cost loses importance. Anyhow the incremental cost of a bit bigger boat (11m rather than 9) is small in the whole scheme of things. Other costs such as maintenace or repairs can of course be significant - another reason for trying to get as new a boat as possible.
 
Lots of good advice from Tranona. I have met couples cruising in a Sadler 26, so it can be done, but what can be carried will be strictly limited. Here are a few suggestions, also covered by Tranona.

If you intend to run a fridge full time, especially the portable type that you mention, you are going to need at least 120 watts of solar panel, or run your engine for hours every day. Having three domestic batteries helps a lot but if your 29 has the same basic design as my 34 this will not be easy to arrange. I have put a starter battery in the shaft tunnel and use all three original batteries for domestic supply. Don't think you can use temporary panels for this sort of power, you really need an arch.

A bimini that can be used when sailing is close to essential. It will be cheaper and far easier to make/have it made in UK, maybe in conjunction with your stern arch. I suggest you also need an awning. We made ours, it's 3 metres wide and extends from the stern arch to the mast.

We found 50 metres of chain to be enough for most locations but occasionally needed more. We now have 60 metres which so far has always been enough. We do deploy it all from time to time. Windlass is virtually essential, as is all chain. Kedge anchor will be used a lot, as will long lines for taking ashore.

Water can be difficult to find on many islands. Your tankage is not very big so supplement as much as possible with plastic jerry cans.
 
Sadler 29 in the Med

I have lived full time in the Mediterranean for the last 13 years, single handed, on my Sadler 29. I made, literally, no changes before leaving the UK except getting a full service for the engine and the rigging tested.

While tempted by the canal route ( long keel version, draught 1.2 metres) I decided I wanted to get here as soon as possible. This entailed crossing the Channel from Dover to Calais, spending 10 pleasant days in the inner marina, and making phone calls to the three major French companies who offer yacht transportion. All are reliable and used to dealing with "foreigners". In 1997 it cost me 750GBP and my unguaranteed guess would be that now it would be double that....still maybe worth considering since three days after taking down the mast in Calais, I picked the boat up in Hyeres, France and the next day was anchored off the delightful island of Porquerolles.

I have added many, many items since arriving, some extremely useful, some "ho-hum", and some quite useless. You will get a lot of good advice on this site, but remember these items to be added are what OTHERS deem necessary, and are NOT necessarily your own priorities.

When you get nearer to your exciting project feel free to get in touch: medliveaboard@hotmail.com.

Cheers

Peter
 
Stern arch for supporting solar panels/bimini/boom tent/aerials is something I've been thinking of for some time. Anyone got any pictures/drawings that may be of assistance in design?

BTW, the reason we're not looking at more modern boats is that we've chartered in the Med a few times (Bavaria and Jeneau) and what is called a 'double stern cabin' turns out to be a cramped, hot berth under the cockpit that you have to clamber over the head of to get into. We're getting to creaky for that!
 
scaredsmiley.gif
Noooo! You're gonna die without a fridge, air conditioning,water maker, satellite comms, 18x 12 volt batteries and...a chrome plated Rochna. You have been warned..stay home mate. :D :D
 
Slow_boat said:
BTW, the reason we're not looking at more modern boats is that we've chartered in the Med a few times (Bavaria and Jeneau) and what is called a 'double stern cabin' turns out to be a cramped, hot berth under the cockpit that you have to clamber over the head of to get into. We're getting to creaky for that!
Click to expand...

Fair point. All part of the compromise and a trade off for the big cockpit and walk through. They usually have good forecabins though - better than most older centre cockpits where the forecabins are often cramped because the saloon is pushed so far forward.

At the top end of your budget, but have a look at the 1999-2001 Bavaria 38 Ocean which has a huge island berth in the aft cabin and good stern platform. Not many about, but quite popular with liveaboards in the Med. Slightly smaller and a bit cheaper is the Beneteau 36cc. More of those around and a good compromise.
 
Sadler 29 - The Perfect yacht

... The idea is to see if we really like it and if we do, figure what we require from our long-term cruising boat...

We did exactly this in 2003, setting off in a 27' Albin Vega. On the day we moved onboard, the longest period that we'd spent full-time on our boat was eight days and we were concerned about spending £40,000 on a 'proper' cruising yacht only to discover after three months that we didn't like it. The theory was, that if we could enjoy/cope with living on the Vega, for the first summer, we would then invest in something bigger/better before heading further afield.

This 'plan' has only failed in one respect: Whilst we've now reached Turkey, by way of Biscay and the Iberian Peninsula and have looked at lots of bigger yachts along the way, we're still unable to find a sensibly priced yacht which we consider to be better than Spring Fever, so we're still sailing around on a twenty-seven footer!
 
Tranona;
I really, really wish you hadn't suggested the Beneteau 36CC.

I googled, found a 1998 one in Port Napoleon for 65k (euro) and am now fighting the urge to make an offer subject to survey! Swmbo's already picking cushions andmaterial for the curtains. Anyone know how much berthing for the winter would be? :-)

BobnLesley
Help keep my feet on the ground! What advantages are there to a smaller boat? There must be some or you'd have bought a big boat by now.
 
I think the "try it with what you've got" approach is very sound. I have done an extended Atlantic circuit and thousands of miles otherwise in a Rustler 31, which I guess is about the same volume as a Sadler 29, perhaps a bit less. I have also chartered various AWBs in the Med and elsewhere, including the larger Bavarias. I had the same sort of choice last year, with a pension lump sum in my pocket and retirement looming- sell the current boat and trade-up for something bigger, or spend the money on the Rustler and keep her. I decided on the latter. It might not be everyone's choice, but you might find that in your current boat it is just fine.
 
Another possible boat to consider (if you do decide to move up in size a bit) could be a Hunter 376 - they are very ergonomic and ideal for living on in hot climates, and there is a reasonably accessible double berth aft.
Here is one for sale in the BVIs - http://www.bviyachtsales.com/core/l...er&&hosturl=bviyachtsales&&ywo=bviyachtsales&

And here is a slightly different model (the 380) for sale in Greece - http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/Hunter-380--1864044/Greece

There is also a 376 for sale on Yachtworld - it is from 1997, and is in Cyprus, but they are asking GBP 95k for her......
 
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Good luck with your plans.

If it was me... I would consider a 2 cabin boat. The Bav 37 comes to mind and having sailed both the shallow draft and the deep keel/tall rig, I would opt for the tall rig. They sail better than Jeanneau 36's in my humble opinion. Very well balance and surprizing quick.

I live in Majorca and my boat has:

- large bimini
- large spray hood for winter
- large tent (mast to the bimini)
- large wind scoop for the forward hatch
- 3 large house batteries
- solar panel
- large (energy guzzling) fridge

No heating except a 1200 w shore power based radiant heater.
 
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Size doesn't matter

"BobnLesley Help keep my feet on the ground! What advantages are there to a smaller boat?"

Below is an article that I wrote about three years ago, my thoughts/option haven't changed much since:

Does Size Really Matter? – The thoughts of a Low Tech, Low Cost, Liveaboard

With limited funds and experience but an abundance of hope and expectation; we decided to give the Cruising Lifestyle a lash and having travelled extensively by motorcycle some years ago, have found that many of the lessons learned then were transferable; not least our belief that if you’re comfortable with what you’ve already got; then stick with it! Any perceived gains in buying something which the ‘experts’ might deem more ‘suitable’ are likely to be more than offset by the inevitable cost of making the change, the aggravation of having to learn the idiosyncrasies in both operating and maintaining your new boat and the potential for despair in finding the underlying reason for it’s having been put up for sale in the first place – what you’ve got may not be perfect, but it’s foibles are unlikely to provide any nasty surprises and as our experiences have shown, many of the pre-conceptions we held at the outset haven’t stood the test of time: -

Accepted wisdom appears to be that for a couple to undertake an extended cruise, you need an 11 metre plus yacht with all the bells and whistles; which even very second hand is likely to cost £40k and upwards. Whereas if you’re afloat in something smaller and simpler; for much less than £25k (our Albin Vega, including the upgrades we made stands us at about £12500, plus a bit of labour) the balance will provide a very substantial cruising fund in itself to which you can add further substantial and fairly obvious ongoing savings, in your insurance, mooring and maintenance costs.

‘A bigger boat would be safer and more comfortable in heavy weather’ – Partly true perhaps; though having now had the experience of sailing on several much larger boats, some of which we’d be loathe to take very far from a secure harbour in anything but the most benign weather; we’ve decided that this is far from an absolute truth. In reality, when the seas are short and steep, all yachts are uncomfortable; it’s just a matter of degree and as we along with 99% of long term cruisers tend to stay put when the weather’s bad anyway; it’s also largely irrelevant. One of the great joys in this lifestyle is that we’re no longer obliged to push a dodgy weather forecast to get back to our home port by Sunday evening and on the odd occasion when we are caught out by an unexpected blow; it’s much easier for the small crew to reduce sail and safely handle a smaller yacht anyway. The more common problem which we cruisers endure is in trying to make progress in light winds and again it’s easier for us to hoist and safely handle a cruising chute or spinnaker than for the bigger yachts: therefore we do it more readily and so spend more time with the engine off – increasing our pleasure and further reducing costs.

‘A bigger boat would provide space for visitors’ – Certainly true but again largely irrelevant. Whilst we had lots of friends and family advising of their intention to join us for a holiday, before we set off; there have been very few who’ve actually made it and conversations with other cruisers indicate that this is the norm. The sailors amongst those who’ve visited seem more than happy to ‘squeeze up’ for a few days and for non/occasional sailors, it makes for better harmony on both sides if they stay in a hotel and just day sail anyway. It’s only the larger yachts which appear to accommodate visitors regularly and this often appears to be primarily because the regular crew want/need some outside assistance to comfortably sail their boat; especially when there’s an extended passage to be made. An additional consideration which we’ve noticed is that the most common reason for boats sitting around for extended periods in unexciting/expensive marinas or perhaps more seriously, in pressing-on despite unpleasant weather; are their attempts to co-ordinate their cruise with the holiday plans of their visitors. On a day to day level, we’ve hosted a dinner party for seven and drinks parties for a dozen-or-so on our twenty-seven footer; if there’s any more than that, well the odds are that at least one of the guests will have a bigger boat; so just relocate the party to theirs instead!

‘A bigger boat would have a proper shower’ – Do any; other than Super-Yachts? Our experience is that in marinas, almost all yachties use the shore-side facilities and even at anchor, a large majority of those with below-deck facilities still use either a solar shower bag or cold water-deck shower. Why? Because boat showers appear high on the list of items which break-down and even when serviceable, the effort of cleaning/drying out the heads compartment and bilges afterwards is often not worth the benefit. Whilst the cockpit option might not provide the same degree of privacy, we’ve found that we and others are willing and able to look the other way for a few minutes. Even on days when there’s no solar gain to be had, a kettle full of hot water added to your shower bag works just as well and if we occasionally feel that the weather is just too unpleasant to bare all in the cockpit, well we obviously weren’t in such serious need of a shower as we’d first thought!

‘A bigger boat has more storage space’ – Again, our experience shows us that this is far from true in practice. Besides which, a truism we found on motorcycles and which is even easier to apply on the boat, is that the amount of gear you think you need will fit into the available space, any excess is only due to the gear which you think you want. Having started with that basic premise, and then reviewed what you actually use, you will find that most of the stuff you thought that you wanted and even some of that which you thought you needed, is surplus to requirements – so dump it. At which point you’ll find that everything you actually need and want, will fit easily into the available stowage space. Which items fall into which category you must decide for yourself on our part we’ve found that folding bicycles fell from a need, to a want, until having realised that we’d used them only twice last summer, dropped them firmly in the ‘thought we wanted’ category – they were last seen in a Spanish boatyard. Conversely, we’ve met one couple, on a relatively small yacht, for whom a karaoke machine is a need and we can’t fault their reasons for carrying it. A surprise has perhaps been that on yachts of all sizes, we’re one of the few to put ‘real’ wine glasses firmly into the need category, though I wasn’t surprised to learn that we’re not the only yacht whose dinghy outboard won’t get replaced when it dies.

Beyond the fairly obvious economic benefits of berthing a smaller yacht which I mentioned earlier; we’ve also discovered a less obvious advantage in this area too. Because the majority of cruising yachts are in the 11/12 metre range, this is where the greatest pressure is felt in securing high season/weekend visitors berths; whereas only three times in three years (three in seven years now) and to be fair one of those was Monte Carlo; have we been turned away from our chosen destination. In raft-up situations too, we are positively welcomed, insofar as we won’t put much load on the inner boat and being small, are less likely to have further yachts tag onto the outside of us. Similarly in even the most crowded of anchorages, we’ve been able to find space by carefully manoeuvring inshore of our larger neighbours and even gained the added advantage of being better sheltered and closer to the beach/dinghy landing.

‘A bigger boat would have a proper galley’ - The only items which we felt Spring Fever lacked were an oven and a fridge, though perhaps not surprisingly, the further south we sailed the less we’ve needed the former and the more important has become the latter. Having been recommended a ‘skillet pan’ (I can’t remember who makes them, but they always have a stand at the Boat Shows) the oven question was quickly sorted: they are brilliant! I occassionally bake bread in it and Lesley’s been known to use ours even when we’re at home during the winter with a full set of domestic appliances to choose from. The fridge we built ourselves; using a Waeco compressor and plate, bespoke stainless steel box and lots of insulation. As a result of the last in particular, we have to date managed far better performance and reliability than many of the boat-builder fitted units which we’ve seen on larger yachts.

‘A bigger boat has standing-headroom’ - This is perhaps a cheat as we’re both under 5’ 9” tall so the Vega affords us that too, but there are plenty of other small yachts out there too which can match or even better it. The Nicholson 26, Halcyon 27 and Elizabethans (The 31footer really is a Tardis) all spring immediately to mind as being sensibly sized/priced and capable of taking you anywhere. If you’re less interested in performance and aesthetics then the Pembroke, Longbow, etc. stable of Westerly 31’s seem good value too. I know I ought and would apologise for not having placed the 26’ Westerly Centaur very firmly into this list too: but despite fulfilling all of our requirements it’s just so damned ugly!
 
Slow_boat said:
Tranona;
I really, really wish you hadn't suggested the Beneteau 36CC.

I googled, found a 1998 one in Port Napoleon for 65k (euro) and am now fighting the urge to make an offer subject to survey! Swmbo's already picking cushions andmaterial for the curtains. Anyone know how much berthing for the winter would be? :-)
Click to expand...

Sorrry! and perhaps I should not tell you about the two Bavaria 38 Oceans in Spain - both under 80k Euros!

This brings up a new issue. Do you buy a boat in UK and take it out to the med or buy one already there?

If the journey there is part of the attraction - the 2 year slow wandering around the outside or the one year meander through the canals then obviously you get a boat here (or use your existing) Downside is the cost of modifications to turn an English Channel boat into a Med boat and the constraints on boat type, although that is not a big problem if you have under 1.6m draft.

The alternative is to buy a boat there so that you can be sailing in the sunshine straight away. Advantages are that the boat will already be equipped appropriately and may come with access to a berth if this is important. Downside is buying at a distance, getting work done if needed and of course a different choice of boat (generally). But the market at the moment is flat, and even with the lower value of the £ there are some real bargains. The two Bavarias are typically on offer at 20% less than 3 years ago.

We went for a variation of the second method. SWMBO does not like English Channel type sailing but fell for the Med after a couple of chartering holidays. I worked out that, provided we had at least two weeks a year, it was cheaper to own a charter boat than rent it. So we bought one and had 9 years good use. The original idea was to do the trip back through the canals and then sell her here. For various reasons we did not do the full trip by water, but we do have a very nice fully paid for Bavaria 37 in our mooring in Poole and hopefully will get a couple of seasons use before AD catches up and we sell her.

If you had offered me £45k last year for my boat in Corfu, I would have given serious consideration. There are plenty of similar boats both private and ex charter available at really good prices. Pays your money and takes your choice!
 
BobnLesley; said:
A bigger boat has more storage space’ – Again, our experience shows us that this is far from true in practice. Besides which, a truism we found on motorcycles and which is even easier to apply on the boat, is that the amount of gear you think you need will fit into the available space, any excess is only due to the gear which you think you want. Having started with that basic premise, and then reviewed what you actually use, you will find that most of the stuff you thought that you wanted and even some of that which you thought you needed, is surplus to requirements – so dump it. At which point you’ll find that everything you actually need and want, will fit easily into the available stowage space.
Click to expand...

Whilst partly agreeing with some of your points, I do think there is a lower limit of what needs to be accommodated. Musing on your post I tried to recall what we keep in our stern locker and what we might manage to do without. Here's the list:

Kedge anchor and 50 metres of warp, 7 metres of chain
25 litre water container that feeds the shower
2 x 15 litre water containers for tank filling
1 x 10 litre container of diesel for emergencies
5 litres engine oil
5 litres outboard fuel
Pela oilchange pump (the round one, about the size of the 10 litre container)
5 litre deionised water container
Winter cockpit cover
Large bag of winter layup halyards
30 metres of heavy rope
3 x buckets
Deck wash brush
2 x water hoses
2 x electric cables
Gas barbecue
Bag of snorkel gear (2 sets fins, masks, snorkels, shortie wetsuit, marker buoy)

There may be a few items I have forgotten but not much I could do without. The stern locker on a Sadler 34 is not huge, but it is definitely bigger than the equivalent on a 29. There is also an Eberspacher in there, not used much recently.
 
A bigger boat has somewhere to esape to.
When we were looking for our first boat with a view to ending up in the Med, we were advised to get the biggest possible so we didn't end up killing each other. We took the advice and are still happily living aboard, but for us it matters that we can retreat to our own quiet corner from time to time.
 
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