Lofrans Cayman 88 windlass - bodging the wiring

[cpedw]

My anchor windlass has failed and I'm in Crookhaven, Ireland, with 5 weeks of my cruise back to Scotland ahead of me. So far as I can tell, the neg connection has failed inside the windlass and I don't think it's practical to remove the windlass and get at the wire. I seem to remember there is nothing much to attend to inside the motor cover; the three wire tails all vanish into the motor.

The symptoms: the solenoid clicks when buttons are pressed but nothing moves. Voltages are happening at the wire tails in line with expectations. Resistance from motor neg to either pos (up and down pos; it doesn't reverse polarity) is varying megohm. Resistance from up pos to down pos is about 4 ohms.

My question: can I rewire using the up and down pos as pos and neg (just getting up operation will be fine), making it effectively a 24V motor driven by 12V? Or will this be likely to cause irreversible damage worse than we already have?

Or is there another way I can fix this?

Thanks,
Derek

 

[eagleswing]

lofran windlass troubleshooting

lofrans windlasses puts the wiring diagrams up on the web:


http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-48936341777063/LW400AN-1200.pdf
i assume you checked 5 amp fuse and circuitbreaker and they are both good. (these are on t he red positive power supply wire common to both foot switches up and down.
on my lofrans tigres model there are 3 wires going into the motor control box, one from a down footbutton switch and one from an up footbutton switch, and one for + voltage. there is also a large ground i don't know how your up and down controls are wired on your model. on mine there is a common red feed supplying power to 2 footbutton switches , 1 for up and 1 for down. up motion of the motor is controlled by a brown wire out of the up button into the control box for the motor , and the down by a blue wire from down button into the control box. the common power supply wire to both buttons is red, and has a 5 amp fuse and also a circuit breaker. you can disassemble the foot buttons and clean the contact plate to make sure the circuit is being completed properly from the footbutton into the control box. on my tigres model, the windlass quit working. i found salt corrosion on the plates of the footbuttons. since neither up nor down footbutton was working, i erroneously assumed it was the motor when in fact it was bad switches. after cleaning both of the switches at the pressure plates, the motor worked fine. these lofrans are very heavy units and i'd be surprised if yours has a motor problem this early. . if you have sufficient power into the motor (12.8 volts+) and it has a good ground and good + circuit from the up switch it should work. note that there is a cutoff voltage for these windlassses , beow the cutoff the windlass will not work. if the battery voltage is too low, even if the up button switch is good, the motor wont work. did you try running the engine while powering the windlass?

look at the circuit diagram from lofrans and let us know how yours compares.

if you decide to take apart the foot buttons, tape a cloth under the anchor well area of the buttons to catch any loose parts falling off the foot switches.

 

[cpedw]

Yes, the fuse, circuit breaker, foot switches and battery voltage are all OK. The contactor makes a massive clunk when a foot switch is pressed.

My arrangement is the foot switch version shown in your link.

My question is whether it would be OK to connect M1 to positive and M2 (in the linked document) to negative or vice-versa depending on direction of turning to achieve a slow one way windlass operation.

Or is there another way to tackle this problem?

Thanks,
Derek

 

[ProDave]

I think your proposal just might work.

Clearly M1 is one motor winding, that drives the motor in one direction, and M2 is another motor winding that drives the motor in the other direction.

If you do as proposed, connect say positive to M1 and negative to M2, then M1 will be correctly polarised, so that winding will drive in it's normal direction. The other, M2 winding will in fact be reverse polarised so will drive "backwards" but in this case that's good, because it's power will add to that produced by the M1 winding.

The problems you will encounter are these are two windings designed for 12V operation, but only in effect getting 6V each, so the torque produced will be significantly lower than normal. The fact both windings are working at the same time will to some extent make up for that, but without doubt the overall torque will e less than normal.

The next problem is how to control it. You won't get any automatic up / down control as the controller is designed to feed one winding or the other, not reverse polarity to one winding.

The best you can hope for is jury rig it in the polarity to lower the winch. Then when you are ready to move on, manually reverse the connections and power up. A fiddle, but it might work to complete your trip.

 

[TQA]

My question is whether it would be OK to connect M1 to positive and M2 (in the linked document) to negative or vice-versa depending on direction of turning to achieve a slow one way windlass operation.



Thanks,
Derek

Errr I am pretty sure that this is not a good idea. I don't think anything will explode but if you have a fuse or circuit breaker it ill blow or pop IF you get current flow.

But as neither up nor down is working then that suggests no current flow.

Brush problem maybe?

 

[exfinnsailor]

Take it you have three wires from the winch. One is the centre tap for the two windings. The centre tap wire has broken so unless you can get it fixed the winch will not work. Do you have a local auto electrical place nearby or take it apart and see if you can connect another wire using a screw connecting block. If this wire just disappears it may be cheaper just to get it rewound.

Edit

Pity your in the middle of knowhere. Perhaps someone at the Sailing Club maybe able to help.

 

[[2574]]

I have the same symptons with my Cayman 88

Last winter I removed the winch motor to be checked over professionally; it was returned "no fault found". I refitted it and had the same problem with the same symptoms as yours. I then discovered that when I put the manual handle in the winch and revolved the winch spindle this caused the motor to work. I know that I wasn't revolving the motor by manually operating the winch (the motor has a worm drive on to the gearbok so cannot be counter-driven) so it must have been just the vibrations of use that somehow made the motor work. I tested this by whacking the windlass with a stick and it has just the same effect. So, it must be the brushes that are sticking on the motor (next winter's job) I reckon but in the meantime the "whack it with the boathook" strategy works well. It might work for you too.

rob

 

[eagleswing]

great solution, rob. i thought whacking with a hammer only unstuck a stuck engine start solenoid . but i guess i''ll have to move a hammer up to my winch compartment for emergencies...

can anyone tell me if the following lore is true:'if you reverse the leads to a dc motor ie switch position of pos to neg and neg to pos -- it will run backwards."
i know this works on simple 12v fans.

but i'd be reluctant to try this on the lofrans...

 

[ProDave]

can anyone tell me if the following lore is true:'if you reverse the leads to a dc motor ie switch position of pos to neg and neg to pos -- it will run backwards."
i know this works on simple 12v fans.

Depends on the motor.

A permanent magnet motor will indeed run backwards.

But a motor with an electromagnet for the stator, will run the same way regardless of polarity. An example being old car starter motors, making the job of converting an old series 2 landrover I had from positive to negative earth easy.

 

[nimbusgb]

Depends on the motor.

A permanent magnet motor will indeed run backwards.

But a motor with an electromagnet for the stator, will run the same way regardless of polarity. An example being old car starter motors, making the job of converting an old series 2 landrover I had from positive to negative earth easy.

I reversed the polarity to my Goiot windlass ( only 2 wires coming from the casing ) and was somewhat taken aback when the motor ran in the same direction. Surely Benetteau would not fit a reversing type windlass and only wire in the one set of windings.......... Oh yes they did! Once I had stripped the unit and discovered the unused M2 terminal a bit of extra cable and my windlass now works in both directions under power. This change has tamed what used to be the 'beast in the bow'. Next change is to move the windlass forward and up 200mm allowing for a decent fall for the chain off the gypsy.

All fine and well having the windlass hidden in the chain locker but if it makes anchoring something to be approached only by the very brave ( chain over rides, snags and jams ) then there's not much point!

 

[cpedw]

Thanks for the advice so far. I'll go with the whacking it treatment for now and see how we get on. I didn't think there were DC motors that only go one way regardless of polarity.

It would be disappointing to try my rewiring suggestion and find I have a motor that only lowers the anchor - I can manage that readily without the windlass's assistance.

It also suggests that I may instead make the motor try to go two ways at once, even if only with 6V behind each direction instead of the usual 12V, it wouldn't be good for it.

As it is, since my enquiry we have managed to find visitor moorings so anchoring has not been required but we don't want to be restricted to places with moorings.

Thanks again,
Derek

 

[eagleswing]

well do enjoy the rest of your vacation, and post the eventual diagnosis for your winch issue...

fairwinds to you.