Local discrimination

[Freedom machine]

Hi new to the forum, thanks for having me

I'm posting this on the liveaboard link because i thought this maybe an issue all to familiar with liveaboards in general.
I would like to become a full time liveaboard in the near future as im still saving for a mortgage but i would consider buying a used swan instead one day if house prices dont freefall in the next decade.
Anyway, i live in cornwall and get turned away constantly for moorings i never ever ask for residential moorings because its an instant no.
Sometimes i like to stay aboard for the odd night as its a great place for me to relax, having ocd can get too much sometimes and sailing has really helped me channel my longterm interest in boats and allows me to find peace. im an engineer at heart and i love to do the maintanance involved in boating. To be fair i love pretty much everything about sailing except one thing... The complete idiots running the moorings.

Could you imagine that, when enquiring to increase my 6 month winter mooring to a full year and pay for a tender berth i would downnosed in favour of non existant tourism, in the middle of a lockdown?
I currently pay £400+ and was given free use of the tender pontoon as a freebie by a cool member of staff, but when speaking to another senior position and offering to pay £1600+ for the year including a year tender berth i was refused!
In my eyes that has to be financial suicide?
If i were running the business id be dragging that employ in for a disciplinary and arranging training every monday morning and friday afternoon.
His reasoning was they simply dont want locals and want tourist money instead.
I feel this is both an insult to locals and also to the tourists as they are footing the bill for moorings and dinghy berths to lie empty for 9 months of the year.
Furthermore, theres nothing stopping them from taking a first come first serve policy whilst retaining some space for visitors, but to be outright refused on the basis of not being a tourist is rude as.....
The way they do this is by constantly creating a fake waiting list, the marina in question even asks for an upfront payment of £25 before an application due to "people shopping around for best price and wasting their time..."
After sailing for two years now i have to say the monopoly aspect of boating is an absolute joke.
Maybe i should just continuosly pay extortionate rates and cruise?

In the middle of a lockdown turning away business?
The audacity!

 

[Solent Cruiser]

You probably ought to be specific about the marina business you are talking about, including location, so we can get data corroborated. Other than that, my input is to say take real action and encourage others to do so. I think it's very fair to say the marina industry is something of an oligopoly ( especially where along the Channel coast) and this is a problem in the UK. Gather your data. Be precise and specific. Then two things. First, write to your MP (which you may feel a waste of time, but it is the process). Second, look up Competition and Markets Authority ( on gov.uk) and fill in their online form requesting an investigation. On the latter, I'd urge ALL boaters to do this as the geographic oligopoly we have is unhealthy and unjust to the customer, being improperly discriminatory. Action is the aim. Create disruptions to the marina market place oligopoly however you can I say.

 

[Tranona]

Although you do not say so explicitly, I assume that they are not prepared to rent you a mooring or a berth if you intend living on your boat. If so they are entirely within their rights to do this and do not have to provide any explanation. It is not for you to determine how they should operate their business . In general terms moorings and berths are for mooring boats, not providing somewhere to live. In many cases this is a requirement of planning permission, Almost all marinas and moorings are privately owned although some are owned by members clubs, statutory bodies or charitable trusts. Irrespective of ownership they all have the right to determine the conditions under which they rent out their berths.

The vast majority do not formally permit people to live on their boats, although some (mostly on inland waterways) do in fact have residential permission. The demand for moorings is in general in excess of demand, although the level of demand varies from place to place. So in some locations prices may be lower and supply more plentiful. All owners will seek to maximise occupation and therefore income and may well place restrictions on the use of their facilities to achieve this.

You may not like this but you have no rights. In no sense does the supply of moorings consist of an oligopoly in which the CMA might be interested as there are literally hundreds of different suppliers. While it may well be true that in a specific location there is a small number or even just one provider - but this is a "natural" monopoly or oligopoly and the market decides on the allocation of the scarce resource. If there was any suggestion of market failure it would be because of lack of supply, not the actions of providers. Equally your MP is unlikely to be interested, although they may be sympathetic to your lack of home - but you have not been denied any rights.

Having said all that many hundreds or even thousands of people do live on their boats, either on residential sites, under specific mooring agreements or with the approval of the owner of the mooring. In almost all cases there is no security and agreements are short term.

 

[Graham376]

Quite a few years ago, we were talking to a film crew doing a documentary about lack of berths for locals on the French west coast. Evidently, EU grants for building the marinas stipulated the percentage of berths to be kept for visiting boats.

 

[Seastoke]

You don’t say what size boat but £400 seems cheap .

 

[Davy_S]

You don’t say what size boat but £400 seems cheap .

Does he mean that is the cost of the tender berth, i wonder.

 

[Lucy52]

Perhaps you could look around for somewhere else more inviting?

 

[Gary Fox]

Avoid marinas, find a mud berth up a creek.

 

[Tranona]

Quite a few years ago, we were talking to a film crew doing a documentary about lack of berths for locals on the French west coast. Evidently, EU grants for building the marinas stipulated the percentage of berths to be kept for visiting boats.

That is very true. People seem to forget that the west coast of France is an economically depressed area and building the marinas was part of the government strategy to boost tourism. Locally owned boat population is comparatively low, so permanent berths are mostly held by people from Paris and as you say a fair number of berths will be reserved for visitors. Marinas and land based facilities are much easier and cheaper to build as there is little competition for the land and building behind sills in tidal locations keeps maintenance costs down.

Very different from thee Med coast where competition for waterfront land is fierce, demand for berths is high and prices are like the Solent on stilts.

 

[Tintin]

Hi new to the forum, thanks for having me

I'm posting this on the liveaboard link because i thought this maybe an issue all to familiar with liveaboards in general.
I would like to become a full time liveaboard in the near future as im still saving for a mortgage but i would consider buying a used swan instead one day if house prices dont freefall in the next decade.
Anyway, i live in cornwall and get turned away constantly for moorings i never ever ask for residential moorings because its an instant no.
Sometimes i like to stay aboard for the odd night as its a great place for me to relax, having ocd can get too much sometimes and sailing has really helped me channel my longterm interest in boats and allows me to find peace. im an engineer at heart and i love to do the maintanance involved in boating. To be fair i love pretty much everything about sailing except one thing... The complete idiots running the moorings.

Could you imagine that, when enquiring to increase my 6 month winter mooring to a full year and pay for a tender berth i would downnosed in favour of non existant tourism, in the middle of a lockdown?
I currently pay £400+ and was given free use of the tender pontoon as a freebie by a cool member of staff, but when speaking to another senior position and offering to pay £1600+ for the year including a year tender berth i was refused!
In my eyes that has to be financial suicide?
If i were running the business id be dragging that employ in for a disciplinary and arranging training every monday morning and friday afternoon.
His reasoning was they simply dont want locals and want tourist money instead.
I feel this is both an insult to locals and also to the tourists as they are footing the bill for moorings and dinghy berths to lie empty for 9 months of the year.
Furthermore, theres nothing stopping them from taking a first come first serve policy whilst retaining some space for visitors, but to be outright refused on the basis of not being a tourist is rude as.....
The way they do this is by constantly creating a fake waiting list, the marina in question even asks for an upfront payment of £25 before an application due to "people shopping around for best price and wasting their time..."
After sailing for two years now i have to say the monopoly aspect of boating is an absolute joke.
Maybe i should just continuosly pay extortionate rates and cruise?

In the middle of a lockdown turning away business?
The audacity!

That hasn't been my experience as a "local" in Cornwall around the Fal.

Sad that you have found this.

 

[Gary Fox]

That hasn't been my experience as a "local" in Cornwall around the Fal.

Sad that you have found this.

Hi that sounds positive! Perhaps you could share the locations in Cornwall which happily accept liveaboards?

 

[jordanbasset]

''I currently pay £400+ and was given free use of the tender pontoon as a freebie by a cool member of staff, but when speaking to another senior position and offering to pay £1600+ for the year including a year tender berth i was refused!''



The question that comes to my mind is how much the the extra £1200 the OP was offering to pay would compare to the short term summer visitor rates. They may be thinking that come May/June they are allowed to open again to visitors. It could just come done to economics rather than any discrimination against locals. Even at £20 a night visitor rates it would only take 2 months to make up the £1200, the other 4 months of the summer would be profit
Part of their thinking may also be influenced by the restrictions/difficulties in travelling abroad and so may be expecting a bumper year for tourism. Certainly during last summer a lot more British people seemed to holiday in the UK rather than go overseas

 

[Freedom machine]

I agree with above, comment on how they may be able to make up the money in a matter of months and thats opens the doors for larger profits throughout the season, but surely in a lockdown situation tourism is likely to be hindered and it seems unfair to not allow a local to enjoy the same pleasure derived from sailing as any visiting craft.
The idea is to get as much business and demand to expand a business surely not?
Perhaps i didnt articulate my point correctly but with new movement restrictions and many boaters losing a large chunk of savings this year, i see banking on a speculative outcome whilst turning away business as rather risky for any established business in the tourism sector, a small loss is always preferred to a large loss?

 

[Freedom machine]

Hi that sounds positive! Perhaps you could share the locations in Cornwall which happily accept liveaboards?

I would also be very interested and welcome any advice in this regard, very positive indeed

 

[Freedom machine]

That hasn't been my experience as a "local" in Cornwall around the Fal.

Sad that you have found this.

I still draw attention to my point about visitors having to foot a larger than neccesary bill because the business is not taking much local custom in quieter times. As a community i think it would be good to see visitors been given better rates and locals also getting better use of facilities during quieter periods.
Even if i could pay monthly to store my dinghy on the pontoon until april it would be money they otherwise wont recieve, after april i could accept that id have to pay the same rates as visitors thats fine, but unloading inflating risking dropping an outboard in the drink twice everytime i visit my boat, when theres an empty pontoon sitting there is pretty annoying.

 

[Freedom machine]

You probably ought to be specific about the marina business you are talking about, including location, so we can get data corroborated. Other than that, my input is to say take real action and encourage others to do so. I think it's very fair to say the marina industry is something of an oligopoly ( especially where along the Channel coast) and this is a problem in the UK. Gather your data. Be precise and specific. Then two things. First, write to your MP (which you may feel a waste of time, but it is the process). Second, look up Competition and Markets Authority ( on gov.uk) and fill in their online form requesting an investigation. On the latter, I'd urge ALL boaters to do this as the geographic oligopoly we have is unhealthy and unjust to the customer, being improperly discriminatory. Action is the aim. Create disruptions to the marina market place oligopoly however you can I say.

Im not sure if i should name the business, i may need to continue using them in the future, but i fully agree with your response, i think everyone should have a right to enjoy the water on a first come first serve basis with some prebooking availability. It seems really sad that we have a situation where its become a bidding war, this isnt an auction, these are advertised prices that arent being honoured/fulfilled

 

[Freedom machine]

Although you do not say so explicitly, I assume that they are not prepared to rent you a mooring or a berth if you intend living on your boat. If so they are entirely within their rights to do this and do not have to provide any explanation. It is not for you to determine how they should operate their business . In general terms moorings and berths are for mooring boats, not providing somewhere to live. In many cases this is a requirement of planning permission, Almost all marinas and moorings are privately owned although some are owned by members clubs, statutory bodies or charitable trusts. Irrespective of ownership they all have the right to determine the conditions under which they rent out their berths.

The vast majority do not formally permit people to live on their boats, although some (mostly on inland waterways) do in fact have residential permission. The demand for moorings is in general in excess of demand, although the level of demand varies from place to place. So in some locations prices may be lower and supply more plentiful. All owners will seek to maximise occupation and therefore income and may well place restrictions on the use of their facilities to achieve this.

You may not like this but you have no rights. In no sense does the supply of moorings consist of an oligopoly in which the CMA might be interested as there are literally hundreds of different suppliers. While it may well be true that in a specific location there is a small number or even just one provider - but this is a "natural" monopoly or oligopoly and the market decides on the allocation of the scarce resource. If there was any suggestion of market failure it would be because of lack of supply, not the actions of providers. Equally your MP is unlikely to be interested, although they may be sympathetic to your lack of home - but you have not been denied any rights.

Having said all that many hundreds or even thousands of people do live on their boats, either on residential sites, under specific mooring agreements or with the approval of the owner of the mooring. In almost all cases there is no security and agreements are short term.

Speaking on behalf of myself, i currently have no intention of living aboard full time, i would like to as a continuos cruiser in the med but that would be in a couple of years and id be a visitor in these regards anyhow.
I rent a property so no, im not lacking a home.
I was actual just enquiring to the business for a leisure mooring and offering to pay for the year upfront, this is what i find abit strange about their decision to not offer me anything.

 

[Freedom machine]

Quite a few years ago, we were talking to a film crew doing a documentary about lack of berths for locals on the French west coast. Evidently, EU grants for building the marinas stipulated the percentage of berths to be kept for visiting boats.

Now this would definitely explain a likely scenario, as cornwall has recieved alot of eu grants other the years.

 

[Freedom machine]

You don’t say what size boat but £400 seems cheap .

Im paying over 400 but dont want to put the full price as it would confirm who i am if the company found this thread and as there arent many options id like to retain the possibility of using their services in the future
It is a winter rate for 5 months
Normally the tender berth for the dinghy is 400 for the year though.
800-900summer
400-500winter
400 dinghy (yearly)

 

[Freedom machine]

I just wanted to say thank you for everyones feedback thus far,
Much obliged