LM 27 what to offer

[SGr8]

Hi, we are looking to buy a LM27 but wanted to get some advice on what we should be looking to offer on one we interested in.

Currently listed for £16450 and it's a 76 and good condition but there is blisters on the hull.

So was thinking of putting an offer in possibly 10% less and conditional on a check. What is the process beyond that quite conscious not wanting to spend on the survey etc if the price won't budge if it is osmosis and what sort of adjustment is reasonable if it does have osmosis?

Thanks Scott

 

[SGr8]

This is the boat for reference
LM 27 for sale UK, LM boats for sale, LM used boat sales, LM Sailing Yachts For Sale LM27 yacht - Apollo Duck

 

[Refueler]

TBH - Price is what YOU are willing to go to ..... Forget looking at market and trying to gauge what is usual price - as sellers ask usually based on their buy in years before .... this perpetuates an unreal market value.

A lot is said about arguing DOWN price because of blisters ... then if not so bad - live with it. But do you not think that seller is aware of that advice ?

Personally - I set a max price I will pay ... and then offer well below that ... expecting seller to argue more ... but in 4 boats bought - 3 have accepted my first offer ... the other delayed his response - then when he accepted 2 days later - I had revised my offer down as I had already told him that offer was only valid for that day. He accepted the reduced offer.

Sorry but some are going to say I'm a 'cad' for that ... but money is money. I do not give it out lightly.

 

[SGr8]

TBH - Price is what YOU are willing to go to ..... Forget looking at market and trying to gauge what is usual price - as sellers ask usually based on their buy in years before .... this perpetuates an unreal market value.

A lot is said about arguing DOWN price because of blisters ... then if not so bad - live with it. But do you not think that seller is aware of that advice ?

Personally - I set a max price I will pay ... and then offer well below that ... expecting seller to argue more ... but in 4 boats bought - 3 have accepted my first offer ... the other delayed his response - then when he accepted 2 days later - I had revised my offer down as I had already told him that offer was only valid for that day. He accepted the reduced offer.

Sorry but some are going to say I'm a 'cad' for that ... but money is money. I do not give it out lightly.

Thank you that is a very good perspective and some good points.

Think I am probably also overthinking eventual resale as well.

 

[billskip]

Sorry but some are going to say I'm a 'cad' for that ...

Not at all, the seller has been made an offer, it's his right to accept or reject.
It's best imho to be prepared to walk away and test the sellers reaction, but sadly emotions enter the negotiations, and the buyer ends up heart rules the head, most naturally.

 

[Refueler]

Not at all, the seller has been made an offer, it's his right to accept or reject.
It's best imho to be prepared to walk away and test the sellers reaction, but sadly emotions enter the negotiations, and the buyer ends up heart rules the head, most naturally.

Thank you Sir.

Buyers need to really decide the level they will go to ... taking in mind that no boat will ever be exactly whats wanted ... so an amount of money should be put aside to correct or add to suit what's wanted. To buy at max limit of 'pocket' soon leads to heartache.

 

[Jacana139]

In my opinion, your offer should be based on the condition of the engine, sails, rigging and cockpit cover. These are some of the other relatively expensive items to replace.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Much depends on state of sails engine and rigging and cockpit canopy. We ended up replacing all on our LM27 which came to about £14k for that lot but gave us the boat we wanted. Your insurer will insist on rerigging unless recently done and the elderly Bukh engine will be expensive to refurbish if worn. However ours feels like a true home when we travel to Brittany or to the Scottish isles. We should have insisted on checking out the sails but widowed seller had them at home and its was only when we tried them on a blustery day that we confirmed by rip that a 36year old sail is a chocolate teapot. We paid £10k but should have offered £8k if we had known sail quality. (We knew engine was not much good)

 

[ChromeDome]

A previous thread discussed LM's:
LM 27 or 28

Blisters can be osmosis but after 55 years of boating, I still haven't heard of a boat that sank, dissolved or broke in bits because of it.

 

[SGr8]

TBH - Price is what YOU are willing to go to ..... Forget looking at market and trying to gauge what is usual price - as sellers ask usually based on their buy in years before .... this perpetuates an unreal market value.

A lot is said about arguing DOWN price because of blisters ... then if not so bad - live with it. But do you not think that seller is aware of that advice ?

Personally - I set a max price I will pay ... and then offer well below that ... expecting seller to argue more ... but in 4 boats bought - 3 have accepted my first offer ... the other delayed his response - then when he accepted 2 days later - I had revised my offer down as I had already told him that offer was only valid for that day. He accepted the reduced offer.

Sorry but some are going to say I'm a 'cad' for that ... but money is money. I do not give it out lightly.

Thank you that is a very good perspective and some good points.

Think I am probably also overthinking eventual resale as well

Much depends on state of sails engine and rigging and cockpit canopy. We ended up replacing all on our LM27 which came to about £14k for that lot but gave us the boat we wanted. Your insurer will insist on rerigging unless recently done and the elderly Bukh engine will be expensive to refurbish if worn. However ours feels like a true home when we travel to Brittany or to the Scottish isles. We should have insisted on checking out the sails but widowed seller had them at home and its was only when we tried them on a blustery day that we confirmed by rip that a 36year old sail is a chocolate teapot. We paid £10k but should have offered £8k if we had known sail quality. (We knew engine was not much good)

Thank you that is very helpful and great points they are expensive parts especially in relation to the cost of the boat easy to double up on cost with replacements. Did you replace the engine or recondition? Are the bukh good?

You are happy with your LM27 then, we are hoping it will give us more confidence to get better and take us more places like would really like to cross to France and possibly upto the Baltic.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Thank you that is a very good perspective and some good points.

Think I am probably also overthinking eventual resale as well

Thank you that is very helpful and great points they are expensive parts especially in relation to the cost of the boat easy to double up on cost with replacements. Did you replace the engine or recondition? Are the bukh good?

You are happy with your LM27 then, we are hoping it will give us more confidence to get better and take us more places like would really like to cross to France and possibly upto the Baltic.

An engineer said that refurbishing Bukh to eliminate oil leak and clutch slip would need £2.5k parts and he would not warrantee it beyond 3 weeks. So bought new Beta25 which makes long journeys under power much less vibraty. She wont go better than 60 degrees to wind except on strongish wind and though can be held to 50 she them simply slows and makes 10degrees more leeway. We modified her to make footrest on door under sink so non-helm can sit on cushion on sink cover. She rolls so chopped out fixed cooker and put in gimballed so can cook up to about 15 degrees of heel, and also put in bars above wheel house side shelves so tea cups and such dont fly across the cabin when she rolls - and a shallow long keeler rolls. She is very buoyant and imitates a rubber duck in F5. We also fitted a removable 6 inch plank washboard in side the wheelhouse door as I feared the effect of waves leaping into cockpit, but Navigator wont go out in F7 anyway. Her only downside is 4.5kt cruising speed unless wind stiff or engine above 2000rpm. She had done 6.5kt under sail and under engine. Thus long passages need planning. One need to avoid bad weather for comfort, so go for quiet and risk bobbing around aimlessly or have engine drone for 36 hours

 

[Tranona]

Forget about the blisters in terms of a bargaining point as they are obvious. You have to asses whether what is on offer meets your expectations. Is it a boat you can live with? then is there anything major that limits your ability to enjoy it without immediate major expenditure? People get obsessed with getting a "deal" - but really at this price level the purchase price is just the entry fee to high expenditure - running costs and replacements. The cap on the purchase budget is the boat plus getting it in the condition you want where you want to use it.

From the description and photos the boat looks well equipped and in usable condition but as already suggested check out the expensive bits like sails, rigging and engine service records before making an offer. The rigging is a key item (much more important than blisters) as, even if it all looks fine you may not be able to get insurance without replacing it if it is more than 10 years old. Replacement is typically £2k. Check with your insurers whether they will accept it based on the information you have about its age. Then decide if you are prepared to pay for replacement if necessary or reduce your offer on that basis. Even if the rigging does not need replacement you might decide just to make a lower offer of, say £15k to test out how keen the seller is. If the offer is accepted you then have the survey and if this shows up negative things that are not obvious from your inspection then there may be room for negotiating the price down.

You also need to think what you might do if you fail to buy this boat. It is a popular design with few alternatives and it might be difficult to find another and you might regret losing it for the sake of a relatively small amount. Never an easy decision and really only you can make it.

 

[Refueler]

Much depends on state of sails engine and rigging and cockpit canopy. We ended up replacing all on our LM27 which came to about £14k for that lot but gave us the boat we wanted. Your insurer will insist on rerigging unless recently done and the elderly Bukh engine will be expensive to refurbish if worn. However ours feels like a true home when we travel to Brittany or to the Scottish isles. We should have insisted on checking out the sails but widowed seller had them at home and its was only when we tried them on a blustery day that we confirmed by rip that a 36year old sail is a chocolate teapot. We paid £10k but should have offered £8k if we had known sail quality. (We knew engine was not much good)

Ok lets look at that :

Insurers requiring re-rigging ..... ONLY if you have surveyor who tries to be clever and makes comment in report. A boat such as this - would have had to been through a hard life to stress its over-engineered rigging !!

Engine - easy enough to have a diesel guy have a shoofti at it ... surveyors are generally not mechanics ...

I agree that 'canvas' workj should be looked at ... just cost me a tidy sum to have my sprayhood, mainsail cover and dodgers replaced ...

LM27 ... good boats and strong ..... unless she's been neglected / hard life, still good for many years to come ...

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Ok lets look at that :

Insurers requiring re-rigging ..... ONLY if you have surveyor who tries to be clever and makes comment in report. A boat such as this - would have had to been through a hard life to stress its over-engineered rigging !!

Engine - easy enough to have a diesel guy have a shoofti at it ... surveyors are generally not mechanics ...

I agree that 'canvas' workj should be looked at ... just cost me a tidy sum to have my sprayhood, mainsail cover and dodgers replaced ...

LM27 ... good boats and strong ..... unless she's been neglected / hard life, still good for many years to come ...

Its not the rigging wire that might give its the end fittings and it is hard to detect decay or corrosion once assembled. Rig failure is unlikely but unlike engine failure is immediately disastrous hence insurers stance. I agree the design is over engineered and thus not worried about reports of surface blisters

 

[V1701]

Asking price seems reasonable, my biggest concern would be the old, original engine. Good opportunity to grind out and fill any blisters while the hull's nice and dry but as others have already said they're not a major concern...

 

[LittleSister]

Bukh's are good, unstressed engines, if very heavy, but most in yachts are getting long in the tooth now. Almost all usual spares are readily available, but tend to be pricey. On an old engine it tends to be the peripherals that go - they rarely get worn out as such, but can expire due to neglect. Check that it starts easily, and feel the compression on each cylinder if the boat has or you can borrow a Bukh starting handle.

I was concerned when I was considering purchasing an LM27 with a 1979 Bukh DV36 (one of the very first of that model (an optional extra on LM27s?) - most have DV20s), but had a recommended experienced engineer look it over, service and run it, and give me a verbal assessment. (i didn't the think a written assessment would give me much more information or comeback, and so didn't justify the additional cost and time.) The engine started immediately, despite having apparently stood unused for a year or more, and while it smoked a little on start up, the engineer wasn't concerned and pronounced it as being apparently in good order for its age. I was mindful that if it failed one can buy second-hand low mileage ex- ships lifeboat Bukhs, including the DV36, and drop that straight in, for considerably less than the cost of a replacement 'modern' engine from another manufacturer and the change to shaft, prop, exhaust and everything that would be required.

Bukh still manufacture the DV36 triple and DV24 twin (and also the D48, DV29 & DV32 variants of these), but they are expensive compared to the alternatives and mainly sold for installation in new lifeboats these days. They also manufacture a lot of much larger more modern engines, but the DV10 single and DV20 twin (which share some parts with the DV36 and DV24, but are different engines) are no longer in production. The Operators Manuals, Workshop Manuals and Parts List/Drawings are all available online (including those for the DV10 & DV20).

Due to illness and other calamities I haven't had a lot of use of my LM, but the engine has proved very satisfactory (including trips to France etc. that involved a lot of motoring) except that the fuel injector pump (a common Bosch model) failed (sprung a major leak) after a year or so, and that was very expensive to have rebuilt. That part, at least, should outlast me now.

There is a Facebook page for Bukh engines, which is a good source of advice and info, but inevitably it tends to be mainly people who are having problems posting, which I think gives a misleading impression as there are tens of thousands of these engines giving good service around the world. Quite a lot of info on Bukh's on these YBW forums, too, if you do a search.

If money were no object I'd rather have a brand new modern engine (probably a Beta), but that's not the case, and my 44 year old Bukh does me.

 

[SGr8]

Bukh's are good, unstressed engines, if very heavy, but most in yachts are getting long in the tooth now. Almost all usual spares are readily available, but tend to be pricey. On an old engine it tends to be the peripherals that go - they rarely get worn out as such, but can expire due to neglect. Check that it starts easily, and feel the compression on each cylinder if the boat has or you can borrow a Bukh starting handle.

I was concerned when I was considering purchasing an LM27 with a 1979 Bukh DV36 (one of the very first of that model (an optional extra on LM27s?) - most have DV20s), but had a recommended experienced engineer look it over, service and run it, and give me a verbal assessment. (i didn't the think a written assessment would give me much more information or comeback, and so didn't justify the additional cost and time.) The engine started immediately, despite having apparently stood unused for a year or more, and while it smoked a little on start up, the engineer wasn't concerned and pronounced it as being apparently in good order for its age. I was mindful that if it failed one can buy second-hand low mileage ex- ships lifeboat Bukhs, including the DV36, and drop that straight in, for considerably less than the cost of a replacement 'modern' engine from another manufacturer and the change to shaft, prop, exhaust and everything that would be required.

Bukh still manufacture the DV36 triple and DV24 twin (and also the D48, DV29 & DV32 variants of these), but they are expensive compared to the alternatives and mainly sold for installation in new lifeboats these days. They also manufacture a lot of much larger more modern engines, but the DV10 single and DV20 twin (which share some parts with the DV36 and DV24, but are different engines) are no longer in production. The Operators Manuals, Workshop Manuals and Parts List/Drawings are all available online (including those for the DV10 & DV20).

Due to illness and other calamities I haven't had a lot of use of my LM, but the engine has proved very satisfactory (including trips to France etc. that involved a lot of motoring) except that the fuel injector pump (a common Bosch model) failed (sprung a major leak) after a year or so, and that was very expensive to have rebuilt. That part, at least, should outlast me now.

There is a Facebook page for Bukh engines, which is a good source of advice and info, but inevitably it tends to be mainly people who are having problems posting, which I think gives a misleading impression as there are tens of thousands of these engines giving good service around the world. Quite a lot of info on Bukh's on these YBW forums, too, if you do a search.

If money were no object I'd rather have a brand new modern engine (probably a Beta), but that's not the case, and my 44 year old Bukh does me.

Thank you so much, that is a lot of great information on the Bukh's gives me much more of an idea on risk and options.

 

[Cspirit]

I bought an LM27 last year. I thought I was buying a hull and a mast plus other bits and pieces - VHF, autohelm, etc and I was prepared to turn this much neglected boat into something that would suit me as a down sizing old man with a dog as crew. It has turned out very well in that I now have a boat tailored to my needs which is very comfortable and easily handled and satisfying to sail.

However, and its a big ‘however’ - I have spent considerably more that the boat’s sale value on a new engine, upholstery, electrics, plumbing, etc, etc. All this I anticipated, although I didn’t expect to have to replace the mast which I discovered had been damaged beyond repair. My point is that you should not focus on resale value. Just try and stay within budget for the boat that suits you.

So, my message is that you must expect to invest a significant sum over and above the purchase price, even if the boat you are considering appears to be in good condition. The LM27 is a motor sailor so you really need a totally reliable engine and, as others have pointed out, a Bukh is now elderly and very likely to let you down at some point. You can do most maintenance and upgrading yourself as I have done -it can be very satisfying - but don’t allow yourself to pay over the odds because you will need to keep something in reserve.

Despite all the above - good luck with finding an LM27 that works for you. You won’t regret it.

 

[ChromeDome]

For you connoisseurs:

Drove by recently, indeed still there and in operation

 

[nevis768]

Hi, we are looking to buy a LM27 but wanted to get some advice on what we should be looking to offer on one we interested in.

Currently listed for £16450 and it's a 76 and good condition but there is blisters on the hull.

So was thinking of putting an offer in possibly 10% less and conditional on a check. What is the process beyond that quite conscious not wanting to spend on the survey etc if the price won't budge if it is osmosis and what sort of adjustment is reasonable if it does have osmosis?

Thanks Scott

Having just bought a similar boat, and looked at few, I wouldn't be offering more than 10k. I would also be wanting a sea trial, if they don't do it, walk away, plenty boats.

Some people are giving them away just now.