Living aboard: is bigger better?

[WorstCase]

I am considering the idea of moving aboard and among other things I am confused about size.
Some advise to get the biggest boat possible some have a more monasterial approach and advise to go small.

What's your take?

Currently I have visited boats in the 45-55 range and 70-75 range... the latter being the one I feel could work as a home for my family. The smaller boats feel like a caravan to me.
But there might be "practical" issue I am overlooking.

 

[PlanB]

Are you talking sail or motor? Do you intend to cruise? Will this be your only home?

 

[WorstCase]

I am leaning towards motor mainly because of the local conditions (shallow waters, inconstant winds, constant need of A/C, tides etc)
I have looked at catamarans (the only sail option really) but, besides the very huge ones in the millions, they lack refinement (lagoon 450 being the smallest and at the same times the most expensive I would consider).
This will be the main residence for my family (2.5 y.o. boy, my wife and I) will also serve as my office.
Location will be the Arabian Gulf (UAE, Qatar and Bahrain). The idea is to have a base in one of these countries (probably Bahrain) and then spend extended periods (one moth or so in each place 2-3 times a year) in the others.
So there will be some cruising involved both for pleasure as well as actual transfers (Bahrain-Dubai is around 280nm).
I forgot to mention that I have never owned a boat before.

 

[TQA]

Do you expect to be able to 'live on the hook' or will you be more or less permanently in a marina.

If the latter then you need to check carefully on availability and COST of such berths. At 75 ft you are in the lower end of big boys toys megayachts and the costs can be in nose bleed territory.

Sounds like a double deck mobo might be the way to go. LOTS of trawlers that might do the job on the market.

 

[WorstCase]

Marina. The one I am interested in runs at 250 eur per meter per year inclusive (electricity water but no wifi) and it's next door to a brand new 5 star resort that offers family membership for 2500k eur per year. In Doha the super posh Four Season Marina runs at about 2.5 times that and Dubai Creek marina around 3 times that. In Yas Island Marina in AbuDhabi prices are very good.
Diesel is around .2 EUR/LT (i'm exaggerating just not to say it's really .1 something) taxes on the boat are nill, only registration fee of 80 EUR per year irrespective of size/value

My budget all incl. is around 300k
By all inclusive I mean fees, taxes duties possible works/fixes/improvements purchasing and eventually shipping because the local market has very little to offer aside from generally neglected overpriced older yachts or extremely expensive and huge megayachts nearly brand new.

 

[Tranona]

Leaving aside the practical realities of running such a boat, you will find very few people who live permanently on that sort of boat, let alone in the location you are talking about. The vast majority of liveaboards use sailing boats, partly because if you do want to cruise they are much more practical and economical than a power boat. Few would see their boat as a direct alternative to a luxury apartment come office to support full time employment and house a family. Some do that in inland waterways both in the UK and particularly northern Europe but the boats are either converted commercial boats or purpose built mobile houseboats that operate at displacement speeds. However, many are not really mobile but use residential moorings.

I can see where you are coming from, looking at those cheap big boats, but suspect reality will kick in when you get the first survey on a prospective purchase with a long list of faults that build up because the owners have fallen out of love with the boat. If you get past that, suspect within a year of getting your boat there you will end up with a static houseboat because of the difficulty in keeping it running and seaworthy. The fact that local boats are old and neglected should be telling you something. In another life I worked for a boat builder who sold several big (for the time) power boats in the gulf. Beautiful boats, custom made, but don't think any of them lasted more than five years. Combination of climate, lack of support for equipment, shortage of skilled reliable people to look after the boat and the usual owners losing interest, mainly because of the hassle and cost. Appreciate things have moved on since then, but so have the boats. The ones we built were state of the art at the time, but very simple and basic by today's standards. The thought of taking a 20 year old (state of the art at the time) boat into that environment is scary.

So, to answer your question, is bigger better. Yes if you are looking for a house substitute then obviously the bigger the better. However, if you are looking for a boat that is primarily a boat that you can live on then you will find the majority of people keep well under 50' with 40' being arguably the optimum size. This is partly because that size gives comfortable living for a couple, is manageable without a crew (which you will need for your 70', particularly as you have no experience or qualifications to skipper such a boat) and is under the 12m limit above which in many parts of the world berthing costs rise dramatically and availability falls. Boats of that size (at least sailing boats) are also relatively simple and maintenance within the skills of a handy person. Recognise you may not have the berthing issue, although you need to check that the marinas will allow you to live permanently on board and conduct your business from the boat.

 

[jordanbasset]

You live in Dubai so you know the score, but I would not consider living on a boat here in the summer, as you know the temperatures are brutal and the humidity makes it worse. Even with air conditioning I think you would struggle.
Having said that Yas Marina is nice but very quiet in the summer months and the mooring costs would be good when compared to renting out here. But on the negative said maintenance of a 70 foot plus boat would also be considerable.

 

[WorstCase]

Hello Jordan,
the heat is a real issue. I have been out on yachts on 40+ deg days, didn't seem much of the problem but the equipment will be definitely under severe stress.
I am not considering Yas for long term, which will be in Bahrain.
Regarding maintenance my concern is with downtime more than cost, besides anything labor intensive (repainting, sanding, cleaning etc) would be relatively cheap. Getting parts will be both costly and time consuming and if I have to move out for things to be fixed then it kinda defeats the purpose.

 

[PlanB]

You say you´ve never owned a boat before, but you intend to do some cruising. Ignoring all the other discussion points for now, if you have no experience, you are going to need a steep learning curve if you are going to start with a 70 footer.
We started with a 45 foot flybridge and that took some serious application and loads of practice before we ventured very far.

 

[WorstCase]

I plan on hiring a captain if anything for passages

 

[nimbusgb]

You are in a different league entirely to probably more than 99 out of 100 people on this forum.

A professional skipper for 'a few passages a year' will cost more than most of us pay for our boat mooring and maintenance in a year.

 

[WorstCase]

Well the idea is to do that until experienced enough to handle the yacht in safety, although here there are no licensing requirements (only UAE are starting implementation this year) I will be taking courses. In any case here it is fairly common to have full time crew on board (which I am not planning on) and it's not that expensive.

 

[nimbusgb]

Gaining enough experience to handle 70 feet of boat is not something you get over a few months. At that size you are into the realms of having to have professional qualifications before a lot of states will allow you in their waters as the master.

 

[WorstCase]

Well that is not an issue with the 5 countries I'll be dealing with. My concern is mainly with safety that's why I am serious about getting proper training and assistance in those occasions in which I would be exposed to potentially dangerous situations, until experienced and confident enough. But as far as regulations and laws are concerned... not a problem for non commercial use.

 

[temptress]

I am considering the idea of moving aboard and among other things I am confused about size.
Some advise to get the biggest boat possible some have a more monasterial approach and advise to go small.

What's your take?

Currently I have visited boats in the 45-55 range and 70-75 range... the latter being the one I feel could work as a home for my family. The smaller boats feel like a caravan to me.
But there might be "practical" issue I am overlooking.

On boat size it depends on you. IMO 70 to big go for around 50ft with good AC. The heat in the summer is oppressive but I think with good AC everything will be fine.

However location wise I have worked and sailed around the gulf. You need to check carefully if the authorities will let you live on a boat. In the UAE this is specifically banned for expats, KSA just too difficult to do anything, and in Bahrain you may get around the rules. The challenge will be your family - they will have no legal status in the country AND moving your boat in the gulf is not a simple task. Also in BaH you will need a sailing (APLIES TO MOTOR and SAIL) permit.in the UAE a sailing permit and boat permit just to moor your boat - this will be linked to a residence address/IQUMA if you are KSA based. Don't underestimate this side of the Gulf. There is a reason there are so few boats in BAH and almost Zero live aboards in the gulf despite it potentially being much cheaper than renting.. When we were I the gulf we left the boat in Europe and rented locally.

 

[truscott]

On boat size it depends on you. IMO 70 to big go for around 50ft with good AC. The heat in the summer is oppressive but I think with good AC everything will be fine.

However location wise I have worked and sailed around the gulf. You need to check carefully if the authorities will let you live on a boat. In the UAE this is specifically banned for expats, KSA just too difficult to do anything, and in Bahrain you may get around the rules. The challenge will be your family - they will have no legal status in the country AND moving your boat in the gulf is not a simple task. Also in BaH you will need a sailing (APLIES TO MOTOR and SAIL) permit.in the UAE a sailing permit and boat permit just to moor your boat - this will be linked to a residence address/IQUMA if you are KSA based. Don't underestimate this side of the Gulf. There is a reason there are so few boats in BAH and almost Zero live aboards in the gulf despite it potentially being much cheaper than renting.. When we were I the gulf we left the boat in Europe and rented locally.

Couldn't have said it better Kev.

One aspect that has not been addressed, is where the boat is registered. If it is foreign flagged, in Bahrain at least it is not possible to move the boat. You arrive, you clear in, the boat goes to a Marina, and stays there until you clear out. You don't get to use it to cruise the country. Spike got away with moving from Amwaj to BYC a few times, but only because Sheikh Nasser was running things. This was the reason the Kuwait guys couldn't come racing in Bahrain anymore. They could sail down, but once moored at BYC, the coastguard wouldn't let them leave the club to take part in the regatta's!

Also by the sounds of it, the idea is to moor at the Ritz Carlton (apologies to the OP if he was meaning that Al Bandar was a 5 star hotel, but we all know that's not true). I can't see the Ritz being happy with anyone living aboard. They don't even like it when owners try to have their boat boys stay on board.

My advice would be to rent a place at Amwaj and buy a stink boat to moor alongside. At least then the OP and family can get out Jarada, go fishing at will, etc...

PT

 

[WorstCase]

Hello Temptress,
there are two sets of issues to be considered as you point out:
1. residency/liveaboard
2. crusing/moving around different countries in the area

you raise many valid points on which (as you may know if you lived in this part of he world) it is somewhat difficult to get definitive answers.

In regards to residency
You're absolutely right about Dubai regarding live aboard etc. but that's Dubai... the other emirates have slightly different approaches.
My choice is really Bahrain where by talking to local people who run chartering businesses told me the marine give the address, you can receive mail etc. On the other hand, is there anyone living aboard currently? It appears not. But when I discussed the matter with knowledgeable local people they did not react as I was suggesting some crazy or impossible/illegal, not one mentioned the heat problem as you suggested this is solved with more A/C. I have my residency in Bahrain since 10 yrs and my business is registered there. As you said things are easier.
Judging from the number of boats out on the on a weekend (really astonishing compared to Bahrain) I'd say Qatar is extremely boat friendly, and again when discussing the idea with local people who own yachts there they're were not shocked at all. The situation in Qatar is somehow halfway between Bahrain and Dubai, although I would say Doha marinas are quite nice, lots and lots of space available and as I mentioned and extremely lively boating community it seems. In the UAE Abu Dhabi appears to be liveaboard friendly (as a matter of fact I would say all the liveaboard stories I heard where of Abu Dhabi based expat, only two in Dubai who kept things under the radar which doesn't seem a reasonable thing to do. So eventually I will be visiting Dubai only for short periods and they looooove tourist (especially extracting money from them).

In regards to cruising
here things are just as hazy but easier to figure out by looking at how things actually work (maybe trying to go convince someone to go to Dubai or hooking up with somebody planning a transfer, at least this is my plan but maybe there are better strategies)
Regarding the sail permit in Bahrain it appears to be a pure formality. Of course one must understand that this is the sea separating Saudi Arabia from Iran not antibes from nice so there are some security concerns and informing authorities about sailing plans, locations, duration and reasons for sailing it would be a necessary part of the routine. Not to mention some part of Manama waters are patrolled by somewhat aggressive US navy.
I honestly have no idea how frequently yachts from neighboring countries move around, so I am determined to find out as much info as possible through local contact before making any decision.

Boat size
In this regard my concerns are multiple:
- comfort (BIG better)
- maintenance (from daily chores to major stuff) (BIG more work)
- maneuverability/agility (this is debatable...)
- mooring (BIG more costly but not too much of a problem around here, neither for cost or availability)
- market (resale appeal)
on the last point things are very unclear. The market is extremely polarized between boats up to 9-10 M and megayachts. 42-50 is where the medium range seems to be (with a minority of boats I feel) with the lower end of it being the most common. This obviously tells you boats here are not meant to be used more than a weekend at a time.

On the other hand I am thinking the type of boat I have in mind (older 60-70 footer) might actually be appealing to the chartering business which seems quite prosperous. So there might be a potential use of the boat once I decide to eventually go back to the land. In that case the person per foot ratio would definitely be in favor of a bigger boat.

I am just wondering what in people experience is a threshold between "big comfortable" and "big overwhelming".

 

[WorstCase]

Hello Truscott,
the option of rent+boat would not serve my purpose of having a moving office (and home, and family...) I can take to my other business locations when I need to be there for some extended periods
boat will be eventually bahraini flagged, most probably as I need to look into this matter further (maybe US? Maybe Cayman?) but Baharaini flag looks ok so far...
The marina I am looking at is Amwaj Marina, not Ritz as it has zero support and basically no boats of some size (that's telling).
The 5 star facility I was referring to is Art Rotana opened this winter.

Are you aware if the same restriction regarding mooring apply elsewhere?
Are you aware if a US flagged vessel enjoys any particular status?

In reagrds to Jarada (you can see it in my avatar)... I plan on being there every (working)day of the week.
Nice to run into people who know the area so well!

 

[temptress]

Good luck and I hope you make it work. Paul (truscot in here) has some interesting points and Spike who used to live onboard in Dubai could not make it work when he tried Bahrain and is no longer in BaH. Paul is closer to this than I am as we are now in Singapore with the boat in the West Indies....

Size of boat is very personal - we lived onboard a 36ft boat but found it too small, our current boat of 14 years is 47ft and we feel has more than enough space. I know people living happily on 20ft boats and others not happy on 100t plus.

As I said good luck.

Kev

 

[KellysEye]

It depends how much money you have, the bigger the boat the more expensive everything is, everything from marinas to fuel.