liveaboard in USA - brits

[taquila]

Hi there!

We are thinking of buying a boat in the USA with a view to doing a project boat and eventually selling up here in UK to live on board permanently. Is there anyone out there who has done this and knows about what Visa requirements would be necessary in order to achieve this. Does anyone also know what storage costs are like in Florida as this is where we envisage being for probably at least 1/2 years.

Looking forward to your replies so we can (hopefully) kick this project off.

Over and out

Jacqui.

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[AndrewB]

A tourist visa is for 6 months but I think its fairly easy to get it extended for a further 6. Then you have to leave for 6 months. A tourist visa is straigtforward to get but you must be able to self-support while visiting, as of course you cannot undertake paid work.

When I left a yacht in Ft Lauderdale a few years back I found marina and yard charges afloat a little higher than comparable facilities in southern England. I don't know about shore-side storage. As with everything there is plenty of range in price, depending on how smart you want to go.

Living aboard while working on the boat would be a further complication, in many places it is discouraged .

But it is certainly the place to go for good value project boats, Americans really down-value older s/h boats compared with Britain. Of course, if you retain or want to re-establish residence in Britain you will have to pay VAT when you bring it back.

 

[Abigail]

A good place to ask this question would be on the live aboard list - run (at the moment) out of Toronto, and with a significant US bias. Somebody on there might know of the visa requirements (though probably not!) but they would certainly know tons about where to base yourself, storage etc etc - and are fantastically generous with their advice (if occasionally quarrelsome with each other).

* Information about how to get on the list is obtained by sending a one-word
message to "live-aboard-request@crux.astro.utoronto.ca". with the command
"info" in the TEXT of the message. This will test your address, too.

This is a cut and paste from my original joining instructions as I subscribe to the list. Best of luck - living aboard is great



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[taquila]

Thanks Andrew, Sarah & Pip for your replies. At the moment we are only considering a boat over there - we have seen one that we are very interested in. We are looking at whether it would be feasible to do the boat up ourselves while on vacations over a couple of years, together with getting local labour to do the bits we feel beyond our capabilities and/or time restraints. When the work is completed and she's afloat again is when we would live aboard full time. We thought it would be less traumatic paying for the re-fitting while we were still earning a regular wage.

Does the VAT problem apply to re-entry to all the EU countries? Probably, yes, knowing our luck! How is it assessed - on purchase price s/h, or 'new' price?

On second thoughts, having moored a boat in Wales for the last 15 years, the thought of all that depressing weather does detract from wanting to live in Britain
again.

Again, thanks for the info - should prove helpful in making the decision.

Jacqui



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[Talbot]

I read somewhere that it is better to import the boat via spain, as their value assessment for the boat is less than UK. Worth checking out, as if you pay the VAT There, you shouldn't have to pay it in UK.

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[Abigail]

We were recently told by another liveaboard couple that (i) they bought their cat in the Caribbean (ii) they sailed it home the long way round (iii) they still have a house here and (iv) they don't have to pay VAT so long as they keep it for a year after returning to UK because it is classed as a personal import. Of course that means UK weather for a year, and I think it only applies to a UK citizen returning to the UK, so you couldn't go to Italy (or somewhere on the Med not charging a wealth tax.)

I have never heard of this line before, but suggest you contact Customs & Excise directly - I've always found them very helpful in business terms, so you never know - I'd certainly get the true word not rely on all of us barrackroom lawyers!

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[BrendanS]

This issue has been discussed in great depth on several occasions in MoboChat. (with expert advice from importers and the like)

Your friends have been misinformed. If they are keeping the boat in the UK, they will certainly be liable to VAT, no matter what their residence status. They will also need to make sure the boat is CE certified if keeping it in Europe

You can however, as Talbot stated, pay VAT in any EEC country, and it is somewhat less in some countries than others.

There are some interesting quirks. If you are german with a german registered boat, and leave the country for more than an allowed period, you have to pay VAT again when you return!

<hr width=100% size=1> I asked an economist for her phone number....and she gave me an estimate

 

[AndrewB]

VAT and importation relief.

Its based on HMCE's assessment of the value. But they'll accept the price you paid, provided it looks realistic, so keep the invoice. As Talbot says, you are technically liable for VAT the moment you enter the EU, and can pay it in any country. It's always a gamble where will be best, recent reports on theis forum have suggested currently the Azores.

The one condition that will avoid you being liable is if you are a British citizen not resident in the EU. If you want to claim this status on arrival, it is advisable to contact IR after you have been out the country for 6 months. It will allow you to claim temporary importation relief for the yacht, but you will only be permitted to remain in the EU for a maximum 6 months without losing this status and becoming liable for VAT.

You will be able to apply for UK registration of a yacht even if you are not resident, and with care, this may avoid sales and other taxes in the US. As a British national, you are not permitted to retain private US registration for an American yacht.

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[claudio]

Re: VAT and importation relief.

It might be worth paying VAT in Malta, they are supposedly joining the EU in May 2004. There is a temporary 5% VAT charge on yachts registered there. You may need to take professional advice ...


Here's the press release

<font color=green>Released 11 December 2003


The Maltese Government’s decision to reduce VAT on yachts, for 4 months, has been described by Alternattiva Demokratika - the country’s Green Party – as “socially unfair and hypocritical”.

Under the Government incentive, between 1 December 2003 and 31 March 2004, yachts & other leisure craft will be subject to just 5% VAT, instead of the usual 15%.

Noel Agius the Green Party’s economic spokesman said that it was unfair that the average citizen of Malta and Goza would have to pay 18% VAT on essential services and products, whilst a privileged minority would benefit from the reduction of VAT on yachts.

Malta joins the EU next May.

Cathy McLean</font color=green>


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[taquila]

Re: VAT and importation relief.

Thanks eveyone for all the replies to my original post. There is obviously more to this VAT thing than I originally thought. I suppose contacting the Customs & Excise is favourite or the IR, even if it does feel a little like contacting a dentist!! - if you know what I mean.

Anyway, thanks again. All we have to do now is wait for the brokerage to get back in touch (do they sleep a lot over there!)

Over and out
Jacqui

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[wishbone]

Re: VAT and importation relief.

Hi I have spoken to the UK C&E on another matter, all imports from non EU contries require vat and import taxes, excempt values being gifts below £38 GBP no vat or tax all other goods purchased limit is £18.00 goods coming from the US vat and other taxes are paid to the carrier upon delivery to the UK address.

Yes things are more expensive here in the UK ! well our import/taxes are! like for like item made in the far east is half price in the US

Wishbone

Rolling, rolling, rolling keep them doggies moving!
Where’s me chuck wagon gone?



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[Birdseye]

Re: VAT and importation relief.

Speak to the customs. As I understand it, you cannot simply shop round the EC to find the cheapest level of vat. As a UK resident bringing a boat back into the UK, you need to pay UK vat - in theory. Same reason you cant import as many fags or as much booze as you like at European tax rates. But whether C&E would catch up with you or even be interested - thats another matter

Also be aware of the EC construction regs which prevent you simply importing a boat from outside the EC without some form of testing or prior approval. Talk to the RYA about that.

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[AndrewJ]

One thing you might consider is the taxes on the boat in Florida. If you buy it in Florida and put it in the water there, (I seem to remember 30 days as the magic number of days in florida waters before you have to register it there), you have to pay 6.5 percent of the purchase price as a tax on it to register it there. Of course you can put it on the hard and work on it, but it's difficult to live on it while it's on the hard. I have seen people who purchase a small trailer (I think you call them caravan's) and live in those while they work on the their boats. There is a boat yard on the OkeechoBee canal where this is done regularly. At least it was last year. I had mine on the hard but rented an apartment from which I commuted as the yard where I had my boat was not that far from the apartment.

<hr width=100% size=1>The only easy day was yesterday

 

[Keith]

make sure you get a ten year visa, in a new passport, that way you don't have the hassle of one expiring way before the other with all the consequences. apply for them in good time as red tape in the US is now worse than ours, pm me if you need any more help, the further north you go in florida the cheaper the marinas get, there is a good one near jacksonville, basic, but you can liveaboard while doing all your own work, port supply (west marine) deliver twice aweek and the prices are very reasonable,there is also long term storage,if you are interested in this facility book real early as it is extremely heavily booked........keith

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[pelicanpete]

I don't liveabaord but am closely associated with many people who do, here in Abaco in The Bahamas. I am however a boat-owner. I would consider buying the boat of your choice in Central or Southern Florida, probably the east coast. Storing it on the hard at one of the boatyards up and down the coast will be expensive, although some less 'glamourous' ones may charge less. However, to avoid the high rates take the boat along the St Lucie Canal (runs between Stuart FL and Lake Okeechobee), about 20 miles, and store it inland at Indiantown Marina. Many of the Bahamas cruisers do this and find it cheaper. Labour rates in the States are not cheap. Expect to pay $70-80 per hour plus sales tax (typically 6%) for mechanical work.

Having refurbished the boat, you will be in the ideal position to cruise the Atlantic or the Gulf Coasts of Florida and The Keys. Furthermore you will be only two days sailing away from the Bahamas where cruising in gin clear waters is a dream. The Abacos, especially, are considered to be some of the best cruising and/or liveaboard waters in the world. Here, there is an active "Cruisers Net" broadcasting daily on CH68 which increases the already excellent camaraderie of boaters at large. Some people cruise over at the end of the hurricane season (Nov) and stay for 6 months. You can stay personally for only 90 days (your boat can stay for a year but this can be extended) It is perfectly legal to take a day trip (or a week!) to the US and re-enter for another 90 days. Of course, this is assuming you do not have to work for a living but even then, if you can survive with a computer, there are wireless and high speed connections to keep you in touch with base.

Expect to pay a $300 annual cruising fee for +35ft boat or $150 for a sub 35 ftr. Once here, you can lie on the hook for free (or a small charge in some harbours) and dinghy in for groceries, social events, etc or pay for a marina berth and have electricity, phone and TV piped into your boat.

As for the States, you are permitted a 6 month stay by the INS (Immig & Nationalisation Service) providing you have obtained a FULL visa from the US Embassy. If you travel with NO visa and you fill in a green 'visa waiver form' you are permitted only 90 days.I beleive that if you stay more than 90 days per year over a period of 2 years you can be deemed resident (in the US) for tax purposes. It's a complex subject and one you should seek advice on from the US Embassy in London.

Hope this whets your appetite. Good Luck!

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[AndrewJ]

I understood it was $300.00 for a cruising permit in the bahamas, but if you left and came back, it was another $300.00. I've been avoiding the Bahamas for just this reason. Do you have other firm information?
thanks. Andrew

<hr width=100% size=1>The only easy day was yesterday

 

[AndrewJ]

One other note, I understand that South Carolina does not have sales tax on boats, as opposed to Florida with 6% or more.

<hr width=100% size=1>The only easy day was yesterday

 

[Keith]

you have it in a nutshell, every time you enter the bahamas you pay!!!! there is more than just the abacos for cruising, it depends what you want, big problem with the abacos is its proximity to floridas weather systems, so when the fronts come through it blows like stink, then you what the drag fest as all the boats start ploughing the bottom, its because there is more boats than safe anchorages, marsh harbour is the only really safe anchorage, if you want peace and quiet, go to long island ,cat island even andros or even the turks and caicos islands next door, alternatively if you want your cruising kitty to last as long as possible there's always cuba, more and more of the cruising boats are going there ........keith

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[pelicanpete]

Andrew
The system re cruising permit charges is in a state of flux at the moment (so I hear!). I don't think even the Immig or Customs really know what to charge from what's reported on the 'net. The consensus as of yesterday Dec 31 was that most boaters were being charged as per my previous post ($300 or $150 depending on LOA)(a further charge applies per passenger over and above captain and mate) and that allows one exit and re-entry for the boat per year with no extra charge. It also allows the captain (not his crew, to depart by air and not have to pay the airport departure tax, which is $15). A fishing licence is also included within the cost of the fee. The word on the water is that the fee structure will be revised w/e/f Jan 1 (today). The person who seems to have the best handle on all of this is the person who runs the cruisers' net; "Patty" at cruisers@cocotels.net . A lot of boaters have reacted badly about the increase and the debate will rage on. But consider that on a six month stay it is $1.65 per day; if you were to fly over from FL the airfare would be about the same; some boats cost their owners $1MM + so is $300 such an unaffordable amount? Duty, stamp taxes and fees is how the Bahamas Govt raises funds to run the country as there is no income tax. So don't be too hard on them.


As for choice of cruising ground, the entire Bahamas is beautiful (except IMHO maybe Nassau!). My earlier comments were slanted towards 'taqila' who was enquiring about living aboard, simply because everything is available in/around Marsh Harbour. The Exumas are beautiful too, but woe betide if you need something obscure to fix your boat. I think the died-in-the wool 'cruiser' may have a different outlook than the 'liveaboard' who wants to centre his/her time in one area and do a little day-sailing. The majority of cruisers I've spoken to seem to like the Abacos in preference to anywhere else in the "Caribbean basin." (I know, the Bahamas are in the Atlantic).

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[Keith]

So is $300 dollars such an unaffordable amount ? when you consider just four years ago it was $15 then it makes you think, the other problem could be, if the rest of the carribean countries follow suit, and follow the bahamas lead and jack there charges up, suddenly costs for cruising become prohibitive and every one suffers.........keith

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