Lithium domestic batteries, anyone?

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macd

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The thread on Li-ion VHF batteries brought to mind a recent conversation with an Aussie berth-holder here the other day. He's seriously thinking of converting to Lithium batteries for the domestic supply on his 42 foot cat. My first reaction was 'more money than sense', but he'd looked into it at some length. Lithiums happily tolerate discharge to 80%, (so a 250Ah bank would be the practical equivalent of his current 500Ah of flooded batteries); the US supplier he's been most in contact with guarantees the batteries for 5 years/2000 cycles. That compares with, if memory serves, 1100 cycles for 6V Trojan traction batteries, and perhaps 5-600 cycles for good quality 'leisure/deep cycle'. Lithiums tolerate faster charging, don't suffer if kept part-charged for extended periods, are lighter and more compact. At present prices are maybe three times what he'd pay for flooded.

These threads have some useful info, for and against, regarding both Li-Ion and Li-Po: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/new-lithium-ion-batteries-22224.html
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72326-new-lithium-batteries.html

Lithium prices are reducing quite significantly. Yes, it's relatively new technology and who wants to depend on it at what's still the beta stage? But maybe it won't be long before it makes sense? Any comments from people clued up on the technology?
 
RickP formerly of this parish has a set of Li-ions on his very fancy cat. He showed me round and the whole system looked impressive. As you say, they tolerate much deeper discharges and can be charged a lot quicker. They're also much lighter for an equivalent battery bank. The drawback is the much increased cost of the batteries. There's also that issue about Li-ions overheating and catching fire. Just look at Boeing's problems!

If I had the dosh, I'd go for it.
 
It's important that Lithium batteries are charged with very precise control - they can explode if over-charged, or charged too fast from flat - and the energy storage density is very highl, so if they do explode, it would be devastating. I wouldn't consider them for on-board use yet.
 
Why not thinking about older technology ? ;)
Which indeed is seldom seen now; mostly because there is hardly a profit for producers to make, battery can keep almost for lifetime... Nickel-Cadmium and Nickel-Ferro.
Indestructible; can be charged and discharged much faster (bigger current) and discharged 100%, can also be kept discharged until needed. Mostly no maintenance, simpler ones may need topping with water. No dangerous gases etc. Now mostly miniature units are known.
Normal domestic batteries (vented-cell kind) got forgotten somehow, they are costly but still may be better buy than any other when price against usable time is considered. For some applications nothing can beat them.
Like on boats...

PS. Page of leading producer, any other batteries too, so a place to look for tech data. http://www.saftbatteries.com/Technologies_Nickel_NiCd_293/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
Another main producer of Nicad is from India (have no experience): http://www.hbl.in/Nickel_battery.asp
 
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Not all Lithium batteries are the same!
There are 2 kinds.

Lithium Iron Phospate LiFePo4 batteries as used by the electric vehicle (EV) manufacturers are fine and safe. Damage tolerant, efficient, and stable.

For some reason, believed to be political, Boeing chose to use Lithium Cobalt batteries which have marginally higher energy density but are prone to fires if there any faults in the charging systems. Examples of this type were also used in the Nokia phones that had problems (fires during charging) a few years ago.

More info here
http://news.investors.com/print/bus...lithium-battery-design-in-787-dreamliner.aspx

and here

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/b...ses-questions.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=1&

From recent reports it would appear the Japanese Yuasa batteries seem to be the ones with the problem. Not confined to Boeing:-
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/japans-mitsubishi-reports-battery-overheat-140350785.html
 
Rossynant said:
Why not thinking about older technology ? ;)
Which indeed is seldom seen now; mostly because there is hardly a profit for producers to make, battery can keep almost for lifetime... Nickel-Cadmium and Nickel-Ferro.
Indestructible; can be charged and discharged much faster (bigger current) and discharged 100%, can also be kept discharged until needed. Mostly no maintenance, simpler ones may need topping with water. No dangerous gases etc. Now mostly miniature units are known.
Normal domestic batteries (vented-cell kind) got forgotten somehow, they are costly but still may be better buy than any other when price against usable time is considered. For some applications nothing can beat them.
Like on boats...

PS. Page of leading producer, any other batteries too, so a place to look for tech data. http://www.saftbatteries.com/Technologies_Nickel_NiCd_293/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
Another main producer of Nicad is from India (have no experience): http://www.hbl.in/Nickel_battery.asp
Click to expand...

I agree vented pocket plate ni-cd - not to be confused with miniature sealed sintered ones - are very durable but they do have plenty of drawbacks compared with lead acid too.
Cost is much higher, volumetric and gravimetric energy densities are lower (don't forget you need more cells, they are only 1.2vpc), self discharge rate is higher, charge efficiency is lower. There is a bigger %age difference between charging voltage and discharge voltage, can be a problem for some loads.
I don't think you are right that they can be discharged and recharged faster than lead acid (particularly AGM) but I haven't dug out all the figures to check. As with lead acid, high rate discharge performance is closely related to plate thickness because it's limited by surface area, current paths (and in lead acid, electrolyte diffusion). When you go for thinner plates (and you can't make ni-cd pocket plates anywhere near as thin as pasted lead acid) you sacrifice robustness and cycle life.
If driven into gassing, they produce the same dangerous gases as lead acid. Where else does the topping up water go?
Cadmium is a nightmare to use in manufacturing from a dangerous substances control point of view. At the factory in the UK where we used to make them when I was in the industry, the specification imposed on us for our waste water permitted a lower level of it than the water companies specification for our incoming mains water supply!
We closed the factory for lack of demand in the late 1980s and turned the space over to producing 10 year life AGM. I think the only other UK ni-cd factory closed a few years later when taken over by SAFT.
They will withstand lower temperatures than lead acid, even when discharged (electrolyte s.g does not reduce in discharge like lead acid does), I think that's why they are popular with railways in low temperature areas.

(Ni-fe is completely obsolete, inferior to ni-cd in every respect i can think of.)
 
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First time I see any other kind battery 30 years old and working, despite being frozen, dried out, left unused for few years, shorted few times, discharged completely few thousand times, overcharged, neglected and abused any ways possible - I gladly will buy such ;)
Sadly Li-Ion cannot match this.

This is primary reason to have a ni-cd: it' durable, works no matter what, and live as long as boat itself. Install and forget. As you can discharge it 100% if needed they will give more capacity for similar size of battery bank than lead. And they give constant voltage for all discharge.
Naturally they are made in many different ways, so I guess aviation ones, for instance, may not be so tough; but those from railway cars I had seen on boat were bought as discarded from trains, much over 10 years old. Had 20 years warranty...

I'm not familiar with them now. But high self discharge rate? A battery that has 50% of capacity left in it after two years is certainly better than any lead; would you show me lead battery that works after two years standing? Especially as 50% down on lead battery might mean death. I wouldn't be so sure about those so advertised AGMs and Gels in term of longevity :p

P.S.
Comparing ni-cd to li-ion: nicd has about twice less energy density, but also twice less cost, so for same capacity may come similar price, only space different. But then it also has about 4 times (or more) cycle life; 4 times shorter charging time (higher charge possible) lot more charge (and any other abuse) tolerance. Self discharge is initially bigger, but then falls to some 2% monthly, while li-ion has in fact 5% monthly as it must be protected by special protection circuits which consume the some current (they are very sensitive to currents received and also cannot be discharged fast).

Compared to lead - both above can be used without fully charging and can be discharged, while lead battery must be charged fully, at least twice a month, which on boat is seldom possible in practice - left with less than 100% will be damaged. Also will be damaged by discharging more than some 40%. At the same time cannot be charged fast. So this simply is not a battery for domestic use, no matter how much "Marine Deep Cycle Heavy Duty" they write on it...

For digging out figures http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produi...r_traction_293_44/Language/en-US/Default.aspx http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Do...0511.628e532e-e3c5-4687-84f8-2599e9e63765.pdf
 
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Rossynant said:
First time I see any other kind battery 30 years old and working, despite being frozen, dried out, left unused for few years, shorted few times, discharged completely few thousand times, overcharged, neglected and abused any ways possible - I gladly will buy such ;)
Sadly Li-Ion cannot match this.

This is primary reason to have a ni-cd: it' durable, works no matter what, and live as long as boat itself. Install and forget. As you can discharge it 100% if needed they will give more capacity for similar size of battery bank than lead. And they give constant voltage for all discharge.
Naturally they are made in many different ways, so I guess aviation ones, for instance, may not be so tough; but those from railway cars I had seen on boat were bought as discarded from trains, much over 10 years old. Had 20 years warranty...

I'm not familiar with them now. But high self discharge rate? A battery that has 50% of capacity left in it after two years is certainly better than any lead; would you show me lead battery that works after two years standing? Especially as 50% down on lead battery might mean death. I wouldn't be so sure about those so advertised AGMs and Gels in term of longevity :p
This looks similar kind, for digging out figures http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produi...r_traction_293_44/Language/en-US/Default.aspx http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Do...0511.628e532e-e3c5-4687-84f8-2599e9e63765.pdf
Click to expand...

I have not disputed their robustness, and I agree a ni-CD would withstand 2 years without charge better, but that is a rare requirement.
If you look at self discharge over a few weeks, which is more relevant to most people, or consider maintaining with a solar panel, lead acid is better.
 
Just added something about it above... Yes, in terms of loss of some charge in first weeks lead battery is much better. But as OP is discussing Li-Ion, also losing quite a bit of charge initially, I left it aside.
Maintaining the system all the time, with daily charging and keeping the bank full whole time obviously lead can do. Still not giving any advantage really. Where there is good possibility to charge every day this initial loss doesn't matter so much - simply as it will have not much time to happen :D

What matters, though, is usable capacity stored in the bank should I need it (as lead batteries cannot be discharged) and reliability of the system as a whole. There may come a day when this power will be needed, and not easy to replenish back immediately. Lead battery has the least capacity of those discussed (even less than ni-cd) and only some 50% of it can be used. So what can we gain from "less loss" in lead battery (say 5% instead of 20) when there is much less of power in there anyway? For practical use important thing is capacity, how much can be withdrawn. Much less from lead. And it needs to be recharged right away... Moreover recharging is not easy.

I'd prefer a battery bank that can be charged in absolutely any way possible and any time convenient, not much caring when, what current or voltage, moreover charged fast. Like getting full charging with just couple hours on engine when it happens to work. Which is possible with ni-cd (even in 1 hour) or li-ion, as they say 3-4 hours possible. Full charge for lead needs over 10 hours really.
 
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Rossynant said:
Like getting full charging with just couple hours on engine when it happens to work. Which is possible with ni-cd (even in 1 hour) or li-ion, as they say 3-4 hours possible. Full charge for lead needs over 10 hours really.
Click to expand...

I think you're exaggerating a little re ni-cd.
If you look at the SAFT documentation, it confirms you can get to about 80% in 2 hours with enough current available, I wouldn't like to push it higher than that, and just as with lead acid the remaining 20% takes a good number of hours.

(Edit - you might be able to do that with the new sintered plate type, not sure, but not with pocket plate which is what we were talking about.)
 
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macd said:
The thread on Li-ion VHF batteries brought to mind a recent conversation with an Aussie berth-holder here the other day. He's seriously thinking of converting to Lithium batteries for the domestic supply on his 42 foot cat. My first reaction was 'more money than sense', but he'd looked into it at some length. Lithiums happily tolerate discharge to 80%, (so a 250Ah bank would be the practical equivalent of his current 500Ah of flooded batteries); the US supplier he's been most in contact with guarantees the batteries for 5 years/2000 cycles. That compares with, if memory serves, 1100 cycles for 6V Trojan traction batteries, and perhaps 5-600 cycles for good quality 'leisure/deep cycle'. Lithiums tolerate faster charging, don't suffer if kept part-charged for extended periods, are lighter and more compact. At present prices are maybe three times what he'd pay for flooded.

These threads have some useful info, for and against, regarding both Li-Ion and Li-Po: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/new-lithium-ion-batteries-22224.html
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72326-new-lithium-batteries.html

Lithium prices are reducing quite significantly. Yes, it's relatively new technology and who wants to depend on it at what's still the beta stage? But maybe it won't be long before it makes sense? Any comments from people clued up on the technology?
Click to expand...

Boeing 787? Chevrolet Volt?

No-one has yet worked out how to keep any ones with more than a few AH capacity under control (cool).
 
Rossynant said:
Why not thinking about older technology ? ;)
Which indeed is seldom seen now; mostly because there is hardly a profit for producers to make, battery can keep almost for lifetime... Nickel-Cadmium and Nickel-Ferro.
Indestructible; can be charged and discharged much faster (bigger current) and discharged 100%, can also be kept discharged until needed. Mostly no maintenance, simpler ones may need topping with water. No dangerous gases etc. Now mostly miniature units are known.
Normal domestic batteries (vented-cell kind) got forgotten somehow, they are costly but still may be better buy than any other when price against usable time is considered. For some applications nothing can beat them.
Like on boats...

PS. Page of leading producer, any other batteries too, so a place to look for tech data. http://www.saftbatteries.com/Technologies_Nickel_NiCd_293/Language/en-US/Default.aspx
Another main producer of Nicad is from India (have no experience): http://www.hbl.in/Nickel_battery.asp
Click to expand...

Nickel-ferro, heavy slow to charge and discharge but Bill Cooper swears by them - NiCad require some fairly clever formatting and re-formatting to get round the memory effect but, in terms of longevity both knock flooded lead-acid into a cocked hat.
 
Memory effect does not apply to flooded pocket plate ni-cd cells as considered here, only sintered plate such as sealed ones in radio battery packs.
 
There was an article in the local "Cruising Helmsman" mag here in AUS a few months back which described the installation of Lithium Iron Phospate LiFePo4 batteries in a cat. All the highlights mentioned in the OP were raised and are hard to ignore. Even the cost over the life of the batteries was reasonable although initially high. No extended use report has been filed yet.

As I was faced with replacing my 500Ah domestic bank I looked into the subject closely and nearly 'took the plunge' but eventually decided to go Lead AGM because I don't think our current charge systems will fully charge the LiFePo4 batteries.

I am happy to be persuaded otherwise, but here is my take on the situation:

Chargers for the range of Lead/Acid batteries we use on boats with "smart multi-stage" controllers, whether alternator, shore or solar powered, look for the battery to increase it's voltage as the charging progresses, particularly in the initial bulk charge stage. That is because lead/acid cells have a very predictable discharge/charge voltage change. However, LiFePo4 batteries have a very flat discharge/charge voltage and the charger needs to monitor the current going in to each cell to know if it is fully charged, not measure the voltage.

My concern is that today's chargers designed for lead/acid will switch out of bulk mode (constant current) too early as they will see the voltage has reached it's programmed level (for lead/acid) but that may be far too soon for adequate and fast charging of the LiFePo4. Even then, when they are in constant voltage mode the chargers really need to know the charge state of each individual LiFePo4 cell by measuring the current being accepted by the cell, as they need to be very closely balanced. I am aware that there are simple shunt regulators whch can be wired accross each cell to avoid over charging and help balancing but they are far from optimum for accuracy and efficiency.

From what I read, medium-large and sophisticated systems such as electric cars have equally sophisticated chargers designed to get the best out of these great storage cells with safety. Unfortuantely using our 'old' chargers designed for lead/acid batteries is unlikely to get the best from the cells and may not be as safe as we would want and expect.

So for me it is back to Lead/Acid but this time I will go for the 'modern' AGM variety since I replaced my shore charger just 9mths ago and I know my alternator and solar panel controllers like the back of my hand.
 
For me LIFEPO4 batteries are a watching brief, fortunately I wont need to change my domestic AGM's for a few years yet, but when I do, I may well consider them, but as has been said, would need a dedicated charger, and alternator controller, to get the best out of them, I'll stay watching, the developements and prices!!
I will keep my AGM's for engine starting as they are a completely different circuit.
 
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