Listening to “You and Yours”, BBC Radio 4, just now (Thursday 27th October 2022, 12.02pm), thinking about Part One Registry, and having kittens

[Kukri]

The programme is about fraudsters stealing people’s houses.

The procedures for ship and land registration in Britain are essentially the same.

In fact the land registry system was copied from the ship system which was in turn copied from the Australian Torrens system.

 

[harvey38]

You're going to need a bigger anchor

 

[davidej]

Not if you are SSR.

Essentially there is no absolutely safe way to gain or keep good title. But luckily fraudsters have decided it is too difficult to make money using boats.

 

[Kukri]

Not if you are SSR.

Essentially there is no absolutely safe way to gain or keep good title. But luckily fraudsters have decided it is too difficult to make money using boats.

SSR is worse as it’s not evidence of title. It’s just down to hard swearing between you and the thief.

 

[davidej]

I probably didn’t express myself clearly.

What I meant was that the system for SSR is nothing like the Land Registry. As Kukri says, it affords absolutely no protection against being scammed. Part 1 does have some similarities to the LR.

 

[Kukri]

I probably didn’t express myself clearly.

What I meant was that the system for SSR is nothing like the Land Registry. As Kukri says, it affords absolutely no protection against being scammed. Part 1 does have some similarities to the LR.

We agree.

I’m happy to say that the Registry of Ships are looking into it and may soon have a solution.

 

[DanTribe]

I was surprised when I changed the SSR on my current boat.
It was basically, send boat name and dimensions, Send money and the registration is yours. No need for proof of ownership.
Previous boat was Blue Book registration and they wanted to know everything, almost down to grandfather's inside leg measurement.

 

[dunedin]

We agree.

I’m happy to say that the Registry of Ships are looking into it and may soon have a solution.

So precisely what "problem" are the Registry of Ships looking into ? Lets hope they are not simply trying to make the SSR more complex - and more expensive. Part 1 is already there for those who want the complexity.

I assume that you are aware the the Government (ie Dept for Transport) has already proposed in a recent "Consultation" that registration be "made available" for
(a) ALL power craft, of whatever size (ie including a rubber tender with a 1hp electric motor); and
(b) any sailing craft over 2.5m - ie bigger than an Oppie.
Be very careful what you wish for with bureacracy and registration.

 

[Kukri]

So precisely what "problem" are the Registry of Ships looking into ? Lets hope they are not simply trying to make the SSR more complex - and more expensive. Part 1 is already there for those who want the complexity.

I assume that you are aware the the Government (ie Dept for Transport) has already proposed in a recent "Consultation" that registration be "made available" for
(a) ALL power craft, of whatever size (ie including a rubber tender with a 1hp electric motor); and
(b) any sailing craft over 2.5m - ie bigger than an Oppie.
Be very careful what you wish for with bureacracy and registration.

This is almost as much fun as an anchor thread!

It has nothing to do with the SSR.

The problem relates to the Part One register when it is used as evidence of title, and it shares the problem with the Land Registry because they are both Torrens registers.

The SSR has nothing to do with it, because it’s never evidence of title.

In a Torrens system, the entry on the Register (NOT the Certificate of Registry*) is unimpeachable evidence of title.

It’s an excellent system, and vastly better than searching for deeds, past Bills of Sale, perjuring gaffers, etc.

However in the rare but not alas unknown case where a fraudulent transaction takes place and someone posing as the Registered Owner (of a farm, a house or a vessel) sells a farm, house, container ship or Westerly Centaur on the Part One Registry to a bona fide purchaser for value without notice, and the new entry is made on the Register, that entry cannot be corrected.

This has, incidentally, almost happened, so the DoTp tell me. Luckily it was stopped in time, for reasons that I should not go into.
It has happened with houses.

* This is why, at the closing of the sale of a Part One registered boat, the seller’s broker produces a Transcript of Register - it shows who the owner is and that there is no mortgage. If there is a mortgage the closing is slightly more complicated as the mortgage is cleared with the purchase funds.

 

[dunedin]

This is almost as much fun as an anchor thread!

The problem relates to the Part One register when it is used as evidence of title, and it shares the problem with the Land Registry because they are both Torrens registers.

The SSR has nothing to do with it.

OK, your post #6 was unclear, as you replied to a post #5 stating - "What I meant was that the system for SSR is nothing like the Land Registry" - so I assumed you were referring to SSR

 

[Kukri]

OK, your post #6 was unclear, as you replied to a post #5 stating - "What I meant was that the system for SSR is nothing like the Land Registry" - so I assumed you were referring to SSR

I have edited my post #9 above to make it clearer.

 

[SaltyC]

Not at home with the actual letter. BUT I gave just received my renewal for SSR . First I have to 'claim my title' to the boat??

I need the current SSR cert number and a copy of the invoice/ bill of transfer.
Once I have 'claimed ' ownership' I can renew my SSR.

So yes, they appear to be making it more difficult for the legitimate owners and giving an opening to the illegitimate scammers to 'aquire boats.