Likely damage after near sinking

[alandav123]

Hi all, my 32 foot MVF was almost sunk yesterday but all is under control again. I was away on hols only getting a ring from harbour master as I was unloading the car of suitcases etc.

It would appear that she got hung up on her starboard side on the rising tide yesterday afternoon and quickly listed over allowing water to pour in through a porthole...yes yes I know. I live 100 yards from harbour and on arrival she was so low in the water that she was just about gone, two mains driven bilges were lowered into the saloon and although they were slow they did start to empty her and the bow started to rise.

After all the drama, we went over her sea cocks, drive shaft area and other through hull fittings and not a drop was coming in, a very wise old boat yard worker came on and found salt water on the inside porthole ledges of the forward heads that was way higher that the water level eleswhere. There were feathers etc on the heads wall where the sea water had literally just poured into the boat. Its absolutely tragic that this happened in a busy corner of a very busy harbour on a sunny friday afternoon and no one spotted it until it was almost under but there you go.......of course as soon as the fire brigade turned up there were over 40 tourists all taking pics as the boats bow is only a couple meters from the fish supper eating benches part of the harbour.

I have looked long and hard and still cannot understand how and where and whats got caught against the dock wall, it must have been a one off freak accident.

The mercedez OM 352 was almost submerged and of course the starter, alternator, and wiring was all submerged, the wires & cables feeding the starter had completely snapped off.

Its a 24 volt set up and I am trying to get some idea of likely fall out. Can I assume the batteries, starter, alternator and any wiring that got soaked is going to be knackered? Is it better to rip out all wiring and start again from scratch.

Luckily ( I do see the irony in using the word) she has little electrics on board other that the starting system / charging system. I have a solid fuel fire in the middle of the saloon so will be using that and air flow to dry the boat out, There are no lights, nav gear, nothing at all. The gas cooker got submerged too incidently.

I am still in shock at all this happeneing to her and it was only last week I was overnighting on her with the kids, it beggars belief that things can change so quickly.

Regards Alan in Arbroath

 

[William_H]

Submersion

I am really sorry for you for your boat submersion. I guess you just have to start at the engine and clean dry and test everything.
The real killer for any thing with a battery in it seems to be the electric power from the battery causing rapid corrosion of wiring etc when under water. It is a bit like electroplating except the material is taken off where you want it. Hence the wiring snapped off. So in any submersion of mobile phone or boat remove or disconnect batteries ASAP.
Too late for you of course. good luck and sympathy olewill

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Time is of the essence with salt water laden electric's and mechanical devices. The alternators and starter motor need to be taken off the engine and washed in fresh water to remove the salt and dried in a cool air flow preferably to just left in a warm room. Both devices can be serviced if required at an auto electrician for example. Wiring may be OK with just a wash using fresh water and sponge in situ with drying using absorbent towels and a hair dryer on cool setting. It takes time for water to penetrate below the plastic insulation. I dont know about the batteries but would consider changing the electrolyte if they are not sealed.

The engine is a bit more problematic because of its size, however, stripping it down and washing all metal in fresh water can achieve good results if it has got soaked through. Remove the air filter and check if there is any water in the chamber. A quick inspection of the oil level in the sump and a visual through the cylinders by removing the injectors and rotating the engine via the fly wheel may indicate that no additional water has entered the engine. If this is the case then no need to strip. I would still remove the rocker cover and inspect the top end of the engine as there can breather spigots / pipes which may have let water in.

The cooker and similar types of equipment can easily be dealt with by fresh water washing and drying off with a paper towel. Partial dismantling of the burners may be required to get down to the nozzle. Compressed air from a dinghy pump connected to the gas inlet hose should blow through the nozzles. It is not likely that water will have penetrated the nozzles into the gas pipe.

However, you need to get to work straight away. The longer you leave it the more permanent damage will occur. Folks have pulled cars, motorbikes, sunk boats and had them up and working again relatively quickly.

 

[TQA]

You have hours to prevent damage. Get that engine running as soon as possible. Wash everything in in fresh water. Get the alternator and starter off and hose them down. Lots of WD 40 on the electrics.

Change the engine and gearbox oil. Consider a substitute fuel tank if you can not empty the integral tank. Mind you check for water contamination first, you might be lucky.

New or borrowed batteries and get that sucker going. By pass the solenoid if that has died, but get it going.

Run it for at least 1/2 hour.

Inspect the dipstick, if the oil is milky change it and run the engine again.

If you are insured the company should expect you to do this and pay for it to be done as it minimises losses.

 

[westernman]

How to you start your average 90HP Yanmar engine without a battery or starter motor?

 

[akyaka]

Cannot support TQA enough. GET THE ENGINE RUNNING.Hopefully the starter motor is working.

If my son had not done this when our boat went aground and was swamped we would have been looking at a write off rather than a repair.You can sort out the electric wiring,sodden cushions etc later.

 

[Billjratt]

I'm going through the same recovery process as you.
My engine is a perkins4108 and ran fine underwater. The starter worked underwater until the solenoid fizzed into oblivion, but I had one in the spares box anyway.
Everything was fresh water washed to get rid of salt, the floorboards and bilge areas varnished/danbolined and the electrics sprayed with W85. Soft things like carpets didn't survive the resussitation process...
After a few weeks the electric stuff showed signs of deterioration and some stopped functioning.
The local engineers had quoted for replacing everything electrical and the insurer agreed.
I was shocked at the cost, but it is the correct thing to do.
Our engine survived, but all the senders are to be changed. The gearbox had a breather underwater and suffered - it did turn, but sounded different, so has been sent back to the manufacturer for examination. The starter and alternator have been refurbished professionally. Even stuff that was not submerged seems to have suffered, particularly the sterling smart controller - which ( I now know) should not be installed in anything other than a totally dry place.
At this point it would be fair to mention a difference to the OP situation - we had to run the engine while sinking in order to beach the boat, so the fanbelt and propshaft were flinging saltwater everywhere.

 

[alandav123]

Hi all, thanks for all your helpful replies..... I bit the bullet and refitted the starter motor which I had removed with a view to getting it refurbed..... just before I bolted it straight on and I also got a jemmy bar and scratched a mark on the flywheel, then did a full revolution of the flywheel. My thinking was that if the worst had happened ( water in the cylinders) the flywheel would not turn so give me a warning not to fire her up. I did manage to get it a full turn, used jumpleads at 24volt straight onto starter and she spun round and fired up immeditaley. She sounded a bit rough but eventually smoothed out and I ran her for 45 mins.

The engine oil is milky so I intend to pump all the old oil out, refill with a flushing / cleansing fluid, run her again then re fill with new oil.

I will also empty the Gbox oil out but I want the engine sorted first.

Importantly I think/hope I have found the reason she nearly went down. After something like this happens without a clear obvious cause..... you start looking very carefully at everything on the boat and I came across a large red rubber pipe on the starboard side about level with the gearbox ( near the stern). It could be visibly traced up the hull to a clean looking 90 degree through hull fitting. I could not see the end of the pipe as it vanished under the screwed down floor boards that are on both sides of the engine. Anyway I cut loose the boards and guess what.........there was nothing at all on the end of the pipe. I went on deck and the skin fitted was barely 10 inches above the waterline !!. What it is in effect is a ready made funnel to pour water straight into the bilges !!. I assume its was previously a bilge pump outlet which had been abandoned.

I have pulled the end up higher than the inlet for just now and will most likely use it as a battery run automatic bilge system which will empty the boat in my absence. It saves me making another hole in the hull.

Now I know that Primrose would not need to list very much at all before water would enter, if this is what happened Friday, then it could be that she filled up stern first which would be less noticable to casual strollers then when a tipping point was reached all the water ran forward and lowered the bow dramatiaclly quickly, this also allowed the front portholes to be sufficently low to allow even more water in almost sinking her.

I think its a more feasable explantion than her listing so far down to allow water in the portholes initally.

If anyone has any thoughts on this explanation wheter good or bad then please get back to me.

Regards Alan

 

[Billjratt]

Red pipe seems a reasonable culprit. Surely there must have been water coming in (slowly) from splashes and driven rain anyway? - or do you not keep that bit of the bilge dry?
Better check all the rest of the boat as well!
Good luck with the engine and gearbox.

 

[alandav123]

Hi there, any small amounts of water coming in there would have just gone into the bilge and got mixed in with any other water collecting in there from condensation, small drips etc..... I have a good mind to run a well controlled experiment to re create the hanging up to see if indeed water will run in there. I could be easily done on a rising tide as there are ladders, wooden pilings etc so plenty places to tie up for a wee while.

Regards Alan

 

[TQA]

How to you start your average 90HP Yanmar engine without a battery or starter motor?

BEG BORROW STEAL or as a last resort buy a battery or two.

The starter motor will almost certainly work but the solenoid may not. Bypass the old type solenoid.

If the starter motor is a pre engaged type and the solenoid has failed, the solenoid needs removing and the starter dog engaged manually before connecting the battery, When the engine starts DO NOT REV THE ENGINE UNTIL THE DOG IS DISENGAGED. The starter will exceed its burtsing rpm and the result is not pretty.

Congratulations anyway to Alan, the OP, who got his engine running.

 

[westernman]

BEG BORROW STEAL or as a last resort buy a battery or two.

The starter motor will almost certainly work but the solenoid may not. Bypass the old type solenoid.

If the starter motor is a pre engaged type and the solenoid has failed, the solenoid needs removing and the starter dog engaged manually before connecting the battery, When the engine starts DO NOT REV THE ENGINE UNTIL THE DOG IS DISENGAGED. The starter will exceed its burtsing rpm and the result is not pretty.

Congratulations anyway to Alan, the OP, who got his engine running.

I have twice had a burnt out starter motor - could that be caused by a preengaged type not disengaging?

Any idea if the starter for a Yanmar 4JH2 DTE is this type or not?

One theory is that we have too many keys on the key ring and this was causing the key to be held in the starter engaged position.

Anyway of starting the motor in such a situation?

PS sorry for drifting off topic.

 

[TQA]

I have twice had a burnt out starter motor - could that be caused by a preengaged type not disengaging?

Any idea if the starter for a Yanmar 4JH2 DTE is this type or not?

One theory is that we have too many keys on the key ring and this was causing the key to be held in the starter engaged position.

Anyway of starting the motor in such a situation?

PS sorry for drifting off topic.

A pre engaged starter not disengaging usually causes physical damage to the starter from centrifugal forces when the engine is revved.

It can look like overheating damage but there is usually some internal scoring damage as well. Close inspection would be needed. Also a genuine burnout has an unmistakable smell.

Your Yanmar starter is almost certainly the pre engaged type.

I read that a RTW sailor managed to start his engine after his starter failed by wrapping a strap around either the cranshaft pulley or the flywheel , connectiing the trap to the mainsheet and using the power of the mainsail to turn the negine and start it, I believe on a daily basis. I think the phrase " desperate measures " applies.

 

[westernman]

A pre engaged starter not disengaging usually causes physical damage to the starter from centrifugal forces when the engine is revved.

It can look like overheating damage but there is usually some internal scoring damage as well. Close inspection would be needed. Also a genuine burnout has an unmistakable smell.

Your Yanmar starter is almost certainly the pre engaged type.

I read that a RTW sailor managed to start his engine after his starter failed by wrapping a strap around either the cranshaft pulley or the flywheel , connectiing the trap to the mainsheet and using the power of the mainsail to turn the negine and start it, I believe on a daily basis. I think the phrase " desperate measures " applies.

There was certainly an unmistakable burning smell, lots of smoke, and the first time it happened, flames as well.

Could this be due to it not disengaging? Or is it more likely to be that the keys on the keyring had caught and held the starter in the "crank" position for more than 20 minutes????