Lighting regs- worrisit?

[[32511]]

Just appeared here: motor vessel with single white light on the foremast, and on the stern mast, from the top, white, red, white, red.
Any ideas?

 

[prv]

Red - white - red is restricted in ability to manoeuvre.

The other two whites could be normal masthead lights if under way, or anchor lights if stopped. You'd tell the difference by their relative height (which you don't mention) and the presence or absence of sidelights.

The way I remember this is based on the day shape for RAM - a diamond between two balls. Well, if you had a spiky diamond between your balls, you too would be restricted in your ability to manoeuvre. At night, the sore balls are red, and the diamond is shiny white.

Pete

 

[trapezeartist]

Red - white - red is restricted in ability to manoeuvre.

The other two whites could be normal masthead lights if under way, or anchor lights if stopped. You'd tell the difference by their relative height (which you don't mention) and the presence or absence of sidelights.

The way I remember this is based on the day shape for RAM - a diamond between two balls. Well, if you had a spiky diamond between your balls, you too would be restricted in your ability to manoeuvre. At night, the sore balls are red, and the diamond is shiny white.

I shall never forget red-white-red again!

 

[Keen_Ed]

Red - White - Red. Red When Restricted

like red over red over red. Rudder rubbing rocks - constrained by draught.

 

[Plevier]

Red - white - red is restricted in ability to manoeuvre.

The other two whites could be normal masthead lights if under way, or anchor lights if stopped. You'd tell the difference by their relative height (which you don't mention) and the presence or absence of sidelights.

The way I remember this is based on the day shape for RAM - a diamond between two balls. Well, if you had a spiky diamond between your balls, you too would be restricted in your ability to manoeuvre. At night, the sore balls are red, and the diamond is shiny white.

Pete

Brilliant

Would you display restricted at the same time as anchored though?

 

[prv]

Would you display restricted at the same time as anchored though?

It's in the rules...

Pete

 

[prv]

Red - White - Red. Red When Restricted

like red over red over red. Rudder rubbing rocks - constrained by draught.

For me, this kind of word-pattern doesn't really work. I have to have an image (like the Pilot's official white hat over his angry red face) or the aforementioned scrotal diamond. To me, the column of red lights simply represents the cylindrical day-shape, and that seems to stick.

Pete

 

[Angele]

It's in the rules...

Pete

Indeed it is (27 b iv), but a bit daft really.

The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel

I'm pretty restricted in my ability to manoeuvre when at anchor and, if making dinner or mixing a G&T can be described as "work", perhaps I need to display them too.

 

[Plevier]

It's in the rules...

Pete

Um yes you're right.

(b) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, except a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations, shall exhibit:
(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
(ii) three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond;
(iii) when making way through the water, a masthead light or lights, sidelights and a stern light, in addition to the lights prescribed in sub-paragraph (i);
(iv) When at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii), the light, lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.

Seems a bit odd.

 

[KellysEye]

>Would you display restricted at the same time as anchored though?

No use an anchor light the restricted lights are for when under way.

 

[prv]

>Would you display restricted at the same time as anchored though?

No use an anchor light the restricted lights are for when under way.

Not according to the ColRegs, as someone has already posted.

Pete

 

[KellysEye]

>Not according to the ColRegs, as someone has already posted.

No detail was given, here it is.

Rule 30
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground
(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
•(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
•(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.
(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.
(c) A vessel at anchor may, and a vessel of 100 meters and more in length shall, also use the available working or equivalent lights to illuminate her decks.
(d) A vessel aground shall exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule and in addition, where they can best be seen;
•(i) two all-round red lights in a vertical line;
•(ii) three balls in a vertical line.
(e) A vessel of less than 7 meters in length, when at anchor not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule.
(f) A vessel of less than 12 meters in length, when aground, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (d)(i) and (ii) of this Rule.

Rule 27
Vessels Not Under Command or Restricted in Their Ability to Maneuver
(a) A vessel not under command shall exhibit:
•(i) two all-round red lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen;
•(ii) two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen;
•(iii)when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.
(b) A vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver, except a vessel engaged in mineclearance operations, shall exhibit:
•(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
•(ii) three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond.
•(iii)when making way through the water, a masthead light, sidelights and a sternlight in addition to the lights prescribed in subparagraph (i);
•(iv) when at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs(i) and (ii), the light, lights, or shape prescribed in Rule 30.
(c) A power-driven vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course shall, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 24(a), exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraph (b)(i) and (ii) of this Rule.
(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to maneuver, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (b)(i),(ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition when an obstruction exists, exhibit:
•(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
•(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass;
•(iii) when at anchor, the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 30.
(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited:
•(i) Three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
•(ii) a rigid replica of the code flag "A" not less than 1 meter in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.
(f)A vessel engaged in mineclearance operations shall in addition to the lights prescribed for a power-driven vessel in Rule 23 or to the light or shape prescribed for a vessel at anchor in Rule 30 as appropriate, exhibit three all-round green lights or three balls. One of these lights or shapes shall be exhibited near the foremast head and one at each end of the fore yard. These lights or shapes indicate that it is dangerous for another vessel to approach within 1000 meters of the mineclearance vessel.
(g) Vessels of less than 12 meters in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule.
(h) The signals prescribed in this Rule are not signals of vessels in distress and requiring assistance. Such signals are contained in Annex IV to these Regulations.

 

[prv]

No use an anchor light the restricted lights are for when under way.

No.

•(iv) when at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs(i) and (ii), the light, lights, or shape prescribed in Rule 30.

Yes.

Pete

 

[Cruiser2B]

Off the top of my head I can think of two types of RAM vessel that might also be at anchor - diving support boats; and dredgers.

 

[Angele]

Off the top of my head I can think of two types of RAM vessel that might also be at anchor - diving support boats; and dredgers.

Underwater operations ... in which case Rule 27d applies:

(d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to
manoeuvre, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in sub-paragraphs (b) (i), (ii) and (iii) of
this Rule and shall in addition, when an obstruction exists, exhibit:
(i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the
obstruction exists;
(ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which
another vessel may pass;
(iii) when at anchor, the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or
shape prescribed in Rule 30.

I fully agree that it is important to know if there is something going on below the surface of a boat at anchor, in order to give it a wide berth, and so the additional warnings this provides are useful.

Where I struggle is in thinking of the circumstances in which it is important to know that a vessel at anchor is restricted in its ability to maneouvre, but is not engaged in underwater activities - i.e. where it exhibits the lights required by 27b, but not the additional ones at 27d.

 

[prv]

Where I struggle is in thinking of the circumstances in which it is important to know that a vessel at anchor is restricted in its ability to maneouvre, but is not engaged in underwater activities - i.e. where it exhibits the lights required by 27b, but not the additional ones at 27d.

I think you've misread paragraph d.

The first sentence says "A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in sub-paragraphs (b) (i), (ii) and (iii) of this Rule".

Underwater operations count as normal RAM. The all-round reds and greens are an addition, only when there is an obstruction protruding from one side of the vessel (dredging bucket wires or whatever).

Pete

 

[Angele]

I think you've misread paragraph d. [snip]

No, no. Far from it. Note my words "the additional ones" in the final sentence.

That was entirely in my thoughts as I was typing, and why I struggle to see the sense of it. If a vessel is RAM and at anchor, but not engaged in dredging or underwater activities, just how differently should you react to that vessel as compared to one that is not RAM but merely at anchor? And so, what is the significance to another skipper of seeing the lights required by 27b if not accompanied by the 27d ones in addition? I don't expect a vessel at anchor to be capable of manoeuvring, but I don't need to give it an especially wide berth if it isn't dredging or otherwise engaged in underwater activities.

Edit: TBH, most of the examples given in the definition of RAM are either descriptions of underwater operations or cannot be applied to a vessel at anchor, but the definition is expressly not exhaustive ("including, but not limited to...") so there could be other things that could make a vessel RAM but are not about doing something below the surface whilst at anchor.

2nd edit: I guess the answer could be given by 27e - i.e. the vessel is actually engaged in diving operations, but it is too small to show all the lights in 27d. so, I should give anything showing RAM lights a wide berth even at anchor, because it MAY have divers down below even though not showing the lights required by 27d.

 

[prv]

No, no. Far from it. Note my words "the additional ones" in the final sentence.

One of us is confused - you wrote

is not engaged in underwater activities - i.e. where it exhibits the lights required by 27b, but not the additional ones at 27d.

I took this to mean that you believe the 27d lights indicate underwater activities - a boat with 27d lights is doing things underwater, and a boat with only 27b lights is not doing things underwater. Have I understood you correctly?

Pete

 

[Angele]

One of us is confused - you wrote


I took this to mean that you believe the 27d lights indicate underwater activities - a boat with 27d lights is doing things underwater, and a boat with only 27b lights is not doing things underwater. Have I understood you correctly?

Pete

Pretty much, but just to clarify......

Putting aside mine clearance, all RAM boats (should) display 27b lights. A boat that is RAM and engaged in dredging or underwater activities also displays* (i.e. in addition to 27b) the 27d lights when there is an obstruction - with the 27d lights telling you which side to pass and which to avoid.

So the one with things going on below the surface that creates an obstruction (minesweeping excepted) is showing both 27b and 27d* (unless it comes under 27e ).

I think it is just you and me who finds this subject interesting. The others seems to have lost interest.

... But I think we are in violent agreement.

*Edit: anchor lights excepted.

Second edit: I think I am beginning to realise where you are coming from - the focus on the existence or otherwise of an obstruction. Surely most (all?) underwater activities create an obstruction on one side or other - even diving. I don't think the obstruction has to be connected to the vessel.

 

[prv]

Pretty much, but just to clarify......

Putting aside mine clearance, all RAM boats (should) display 27b lights. A boat that is RAM and engaged in dredging or underwater activities also displays* (i.e. in addition to 27b) the 27d lights when there is an obstruction - with the 27d lights telling you which side to pass and which to avoid.

Right - but only when there is an obstruction. If it's conducting underwater operations without an outlying obstruction (like a diving support vessel - it lowers the diving bell vertically through a moon-pool, or at worst straight down the ship's side) then it doesn't show 27d lights. You didn't seem to be allowing for this possibility, and conflating underwater with obstruction when they are separate things.

Pete