Light Dues, GPS & Chartplotters

TheBoatman

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With the introduction of GPS and having read the posts on a previous (running) thread I was wondering whether we actually need Nav marks or, as TH and Ports Authorities like to call them "Stations".

With the introduction of GPS and subsequently chart plotters at affordable prices, even the worst navigators amongst us can now navigate a boat to very low XTE and have at their fingertips an amazing amount of extra information, TTG, VMG etc, which used to take forever to workout and normally in bad conditions, down below with your head down and starting to feel sick even in moderate seas.

If this system is linked in some way to the auto helm it becomes even easier. A navigator/owner can now state with a 95% certainty of his/her position within 10 mtrs.

Now, although I’m from the old school of navigation even I know that’s B****y close. I should mention at this point that I was one of the “close enough is near enough brigade” I.e. passage from Oostende to Ramsgate, if I hit the North Foreland within +/- 3 nm I was close enough to workout the final course to Ramsgate<s>.

For me that has now all changed and I can hit Ramsgate on the nose every time within 10 mtrs.

It now seems to me that we can sit in a harbour/marina or our own homes and make a complete passage plan including all w/points / bolt holes / calculations on point of no return marks, etc, for any trip, of any reasonable length. Having done this we can input the information into the ships navigation equipment and commence the passage without the use of any navigational marks (stations).

However, having said that, I still believe that I would like the Nav marks to be there. They are like a child’s comfort blanket; I can never pass a mark without checking the chart and plotter to see that I’m on course. I seem to need the re-assurance that I’m on course even though the GPS/Plotter tells me THAT I AM?
I have even been known to get the binoc’s out to read a distant mark and check that I’m right, sad!

I for one, have been converted from a paper chart, pencil person to an electronic navigator, I use the available electronics to aid me in getting from A to B safely and with untold precision, this can be achieved with out the use of Nav marks BUT on reflection I would still like to see them “out there”.

What do you think?


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alanporter

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Relying on electronic aids alone is very foolish.. A few years ago an un-named (!) sailor was single handing northwards up the east coast of Africa with a built in GPS and no less than four hand helds and a big box of spare batteries to be on the safe side. This was great until the American military turned the GPS satellites off for some reason. Astro-nav skills being many years out of date and relying only on dead reckoning, our intrepid sailor was 200 nautical miles from his plotted position when the GPS satellites were switched on again.
Yes, we do need fixed navigational aids, buoys, lighthouses, etc, because that fuzzy grey coast of Africa could have been anywhere on the planet for our hero.
How many of us can still do a reliable running fix ? and all the other pencil and parallel rule things we used to practice in the "old" days ?

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MainlySteam

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While in a different country , but the issue is still the same, I would still like to see them too.

In New Zealand commercial vessels pay light dues but the pleasure boaters' share is paid from general taxation (ie everyone pays). Interestingly, a few years ago the commercial users, given the use of GPS, were surveyed as to whether they wanted the navigation aids reduced with a consequent reduction in dues, and the majority response was that they did not wish to see the number of aids reduced.

John

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MainlySteam

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<<<This was great until the American military turned the GPS satellites off for some reason.>>>

I would be interested to know when that happened, if it ever did?

If anyone has authorative information on any such occurance of the GPS being "turned off" I would be genuinely interested and appreciate being advised.

John

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john_morris_uk

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The American military turned GPS 'off' (at least effectively off for non military use) during the opening phase of the first Gulf War. I seem to remember that it was only for a few hours. The results were that positions became wild and innaccurate. A more cynical person might question why we should all put our faith so completely in the USA. Interestingly, I have no record of the same thing happening during Op Telic.

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ianwright

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Hmmm, When you and every one else stick to their chosen heading and position is "within 10 meters" won't we all be packed rather close together? All of us using the same track from a book or off a disc, same waypoints, same turning marks...
In the days when a mile or so would do at least we spread out a little. And a good thing to.

IanW

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tome

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John

Beg to differ on this. We were using GPS as backup during the first Gulf war and also had radionav on board. The two positions were in good agreement throughout, which puzzled us as we expected them to apply selective availability which would degrade the GPS positions.

It was only afterwards that I learned they didn't have enough L2 (military) receivers for the troops and had distributed civilian ones which explains why they had to maintain L1 accuracy.

During the opening phases we did see some satellites being re-positioned and marked unhealthy during this phase but I'm certain it was never 'switched off'.

These days, reports of GPS being switched off invariably have a simple explanation. Proximity to powerful TV transmitters seems to be the leading culprit.

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calliope

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The US did not turn off the GPS for 'Gulf 2' although for a very limited phase of the air campaign during Gulf 1 it was unavailable - but from memory this was measured in hours. It is highly unlikely the US would ever do so again. The dependancy of airlines, shipping and the criticality of timing information for communication networks is such that the US are as likely to score an own goal against themselves as much as anyone else. There are also competing ystems from Russia and relatively shortly Europe coming into service. The biggest danger is running out of batteries for most people!

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G

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Your approach is fine

It is commendable in my opinion. Embrace the new technology - but never forget the old - You NEVER know when you will need it.

Trouble is too many people are getting on the water now and taking all new technology as gospel without any understanding of basics. As long as they can read a tide table - they don't think about tide curves, buoys, light signals / characteristics, current and drift correction etc.

Sad because we all know that over the passage of time these skills will die out amongst the masses and eventually what is new technology today will be surpassed later etc. etc.

Just think in 100 years - people will be on some virtual forum thingy lamenting the passing of GPS and PC plotting ... that old reliable Old-Hand navigation way .....

Food for thought ????


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john_morris_uk

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I'm willing to be corrected - it was a collegue who had his GPS on at the time who told me. It could be that the repositioning of the satillites and the degredation of some signals threw his rather old GPS out. There were various reports at the time of other users who struggled to maintain a fix.

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tome

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I was on a survey ship and we were monitoring GPS accuracy against Syledis radionav 24/7 throughout. It was early days for GPS and there were quite extensive periods of less than 4 sats (some lasting several hours) as there were only a few SVs in constellation at that time. However, these were entirely predictable from almanac data. A GPS user without our equipment might have mis-interpreted this as a shut-down but we recorded continuous coverage as I recall.

We did see some unscheduled outages of individual SVs and put this down to them re-positioning them for optimum GPS coverage in the Gulf theatre.

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Cornishman

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Don't you find it rather boring being 'right' every time? One of the reasons I have enjoyed cruising for over 40 years has been testing my navigational skills. The excitement of making a landfall after 12 hours, 12 days and on one occasion after 35 days in the Indian Ocean has been far more satisfying then being within 10m of what a radio receiver tells me. BTW if your boat has LOA of more than 10m does it not become confusing?

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G

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Gulf War 1 and times of hostility

There have been a number of occasions where excessive inaccuracy has been input to throw off the signals, but this does not interfere with US / Nato miltiary use of the system as the dual receiver uinits they use cancel this out.
During the first Gulf War it was done, but as to actually switching it OFF ...... that is another matter and one that I haven't heard as happened. I was there in the Gulf during the war and many occasions was in close contact with US and UK troops etc. with their sets ! They didn't seem to have trouble getting their battle tanks to the 'waypoints' ..........


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TheBoatman

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Ian
The one thing that I never do is input w/points from an almanac. To much chance of running into either the mark or someone else. I would normally input directly from the chart plotter screen and add a little leeway room. Anyway after this recent blow we've had I noticed last Thursday whilst fishing out of Ramsaget that at least 6 of the marks had moved "considerably"

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G

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Funny - we went through a spate of a few asking for copies of waypoint listings ..... then it died out .... I think someone ther pointed out - collisions only happen when two or more try to be in same place at same time !!


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TheBoatman

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Roger
I'm never totally sure!

However if I look at it from a historical point of view I have never been on a boat with electronics that have failed and I'm talking GPS/plotters here not the hot water system blowing a fuse.

I have never witnessed the GPS signal going completely off line. I have experienced the odd signal wobble, evident by the fact that the boat was on auto and suddenly started to change course. I simply took it off line for a few minutes and let the signal settle down then turned it back on again.

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qsiv

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Almost a bigger issue these days is both the inaccuracy of the charts (relative to the accuracy of GPS), and the frequency with which bouys are off station.

My Old Man was keen to remind me that the Patent (Walker) log was distrusted by many when it first came out as being too modern and technical, and should be alway be backed up with a 'proper' log.

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