Lifting Keels

Philiz

Philiz

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Following on from my Westerly Riviera thread, another boat we're interested in has an hydraulically operated lifting keel. Does anyone have one of these? Pro's and con's please!

The boat is a Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40.

I feel I should warn you, there may be a few similar posts in the coming weeks/months but as we're moving from power to sail I thought it best to ask the folks in the know :o
 
Philiz said:
The boat is a Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40.
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Oooh! If you want a Sun Fizz 40 that is going cheap then just speak to Yachting Monthly. (Snooks, where are you?)

I'm sure they could cut you are great deal. Ok, so it'll need a bit of work, what with the absence of a coachroof and all (after the explosion), but great for a bit of DIY.:D

Seriously, though. If theirs was a lifting keel version, they must have had some experience of the mechanism.
 
I'm pretty sure the crash test boat was a fixed fin keel.

Pros: wider cruising range, more flexibility (=cheaper) berthing. Depending on configuration you may be able to beach the boat on sand/mud safely. These things may not matter to you if you only cruise deep water and are happy to pay for a full depth mooring or berth.

Cons: can take up space inside the cabin, it's another system to maintain, the keel can itself be difficult to get access to if it can't be locked down in such a way that it can take the boat's whole weight.

Other more knowledgeable people will probably be along shortly...
 
The lift keel on a Sunfizz doesn't impinge on cabin space I believe as it stows inside the fixed keel stub I think. I have no knowledge of it otherwise.

However Sailing Today I'm pretty sure tested a used lift keel one way back 12/13 years ago) so might have back copies available. I used to have a copy but had a clearout a while back. Also pretty sure YM tested the earlier Sunfizz 40 so same applies, but probably fixed fin.

One of the slight downsides is how to paint the lift keel bit, but a bit of negotiation with the boatlift and yard staff can work miracles for the price of some beer tokens.

We have friends with a very beautiful Alan Hill 40ft wooden lift keel ketch that they have had in the family from new. They have legs for drying out in places others cannot reach and use the shallower draught to very good effect, plus the boat has been well proven in bad weather many times. Different boat of course but if seakeeping ability of a lift keel was a concern i don't think it should be.
 
Robin said:
The lift keel on a Sunfizz doesn't impinge on cabin space I believe as it stows inside the fixed keel stub I think. I have no knowledge of it otherwise.
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My experience of that type of keel is limited to some Sonatas I used to own. They used gravity to lower the keel and if you grounded and some muck got in the slot it was a major hassle to get them to drop again. It was very difficult to antifoul the inside of the slot so barnacles used to get in there and contribute to the jamming.

Getting access to the keel on land was a nightmare. It would have helped to have a cradle tall enough to let the keel drop. I had to make do with a lot of jacking and blocking - it made me pretty nervous.

Note that if the keel can't be locked in the down position, stability has to be calculated with it in the 'up' position for purposes of coding etc.
 
Philiz said:
Following on from my Westerly Riviera thread, another boat we're interested in has an hydraulically operated lifting keel. Does anyone have one of these? Pro's and con's please!

The boat is a Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40.

I feel I should warn you, there may be a few similar posts in the coming weeks/months but as we're moving from power to sail I thought it best to ask the folks in the know :o
Click to expand...

As you know Phil, we're also planning to move to sail. One of the boats we're interested in (currently top of our short list) is the Jeanneau Espace 1100, which is available with an electro-hydraulic keel. This is obviously of interest to us East coasters. Not sure if the Sun Fizz is exactly the same, but the ad below shows how the keel works on the Espace and that it doesn't intrude into the accommodation. Perhaps one of our yottie cousins will confirm if this is the same on the Sun Fizz.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...access=Public&listing_id=29864&url=&imc=pg-fs
 
Lift keel boats have been more popular in France because of their large numbers of drying harbours. Their designs tend to use stub keels to minimise protrusion of the keel box into the cabin, but does mean that they are not so easy to dry out without legs, although it also means that rudders can be deeper than in flat bottomed boats.

Once you accept those trade offs compared with a fixed keel of the same design, the other major issue is maintenance - as already mentioned the difficulty of getting at the drop keel to anti foul, but probably of more relevance on an older boat, maintenance/replacement of the pivot bolt and hydraulic lifting mechanism. More things to go wrong, but probably not a big issue if well maintained.
 
PaulGooch said:
As you know Phil, we're also planning to move to sail. One of the boats we're interested in (currently top of our short list) is the Jeanneau Espace 1100, which is available with an electro-hydraulic keel. This is obviously of interest to us East coasters. Not sure if the Sun Fizz is exactly the same, but the ad below shows how the keel works on the Espace and that it doesn't intrude into the accommodation. Perhaps one of our yottie cousins will confirm if this is the same on the Sun Fizz.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/core/li...access=Public&listing_id=29864&url=&imc=pg-fs
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Cheers Paul, looks the same. Nice boat too! :)
 
snowleopard said:
My experience of that type of keel is limited to some Sonatas I used to own. They used gravity to lower the keel
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If this one is hydraulic, then I think it's pretty unlikely to drop by gravity. You'd want to pump the ram down so that it was in position ready to be pumped back up.

Pete
 
Philiz said:
Following on from my Westerly Riviera thread, another boat we're interested in has an hydraulically operated lifting keel. Does anyone have one of these? Pro's and con's please!
Click to expand...

Sorry if it is no use regarding the boat you have in mind, but:

our Parker 31 (1990) has a 1000+ kg 1.7 m lifting keel. It is operated with a substantial hydraulic pump and ram, operating two SS cables on pulleys (roved to disadvantage). Later models have just the ramrod operating the keel directly.

Pros: easy and fast lifting, quite safe (an hydraulic valve opens at the end of travel).

Disadvantages: to lift, you need at least a 100 Ah (I have 220) battery to operate, and if possible, running the engine as well. But no power needed for lowering the keel, it drops by gravity. Two 25 mm rubber tubes running from the cockpit to the foot of the mast.

Problems:
- own problems : wear on the cables and aluminium pulleys.
- known problems from fellow owners: leaking hydraulic fluid from ramrod and couplings. Chafe on the tubing in the bilge. Wear and sometimes, cracking of the synthetic blocks which guide the keel. Complicated and delicate height measurement system.

Incidentally, a Dutch sailing friend made a system up himself with forklift parts. He hasn't had any problems so far.
 
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Can't speak for that particular boat but, in general, lift keels are fantastic.

I suppose that depends on the type of sailing one does but we're a 75% in the Solent sort of family and get huge benefits from drawing next to nothing.

We chose our current boat (an unusual choice - Delphia from Poland) for its lift keel and have not regretted it. No fancy hydraulics for us - just a line to tug on; the ballast is mainly in a stub keel. There is a keel box which forms the centre of the saloon table. This is a positive rather than a negative as you've always got something solid to lean against when moving about.

You do need to be ready to wave people off from following you sometimes!
 
Can't speak for your particular boat, but my own little boat has a lifting keel so some of this may be relevant.

My boat dries out hapilly with the keel up and dwaws only about a foot keep up.

Mine is lited by cranking a handle 50 turns that lifts it via a stainless wire over a couple of pulleys up into a keel box in the cabin.

I can (or will be able to soon) lower my keel on the trailer for maintenance. I can also remove the top of the keel box and inspect from above.

If there's a stainless rope involved in the lifting, maintenance of that is VITAL. Mine is about to be replaced as it hs one broken strand so I no longer trust it. The thought of that snapping and the keel dropping the full distance rapidly worries me, it would probably go through the bottom of the boat.

If all the gear is underwater in a stub keel that's going to need more serious, more frequent maintenance.
 
I have had a lift keel boat, on and off, since 1977.

For a start, I always smile when hearing about 'ditch crawling up creeks' there's not really that much difference in a couple of feet of draught in brown water impermeable to one's vision, and if hovering over anything except well charted, pre-personally inspected soft mud, it takes a braver man than me !

The main advantage is being able to go on relatively cheaper ( especially in the Solent ) half tide moorings.

I have heard of some hydrauically actuated keels suffering seal leakage & pipe corrosion, as the systems tend to run in the bilges; my 22' boats' 950lb keel is raised by a 'trailer winch', lowered by gravity but braked so it can't 'run away'.

I heard of a different, larger design which had a hairly moment when a novice crew kept pressing the 'up button' for an electrically raised keel; there was a microswitch to prevent over enthusiastic raising, but it was jammed; so the winch kept straining, the wire broke and the keel took out some of the boat's bottom, they were lucky to make it to beach her.

On that subject, if using electric winches for large keels - such as the Barracuda 45 - I believe the engine & alternator had to be running when the keel was being raised, which begs the question 'how good is the manual over-ride if the electrics are out' ?!

Also, do keep an eye on ballast ratio, some lift keels are rather light; and I can think of one design which required a modification gasket to prevent flooding through the keelbox, even the website has photo's & warnings of examples sinking.

As boats get larger a lift keel becomes a serious bit of engineering, and the usual solution is a stub ballast keel, with a relatively light 'anti leeway plate' going through it; I have found the examples of such boats I've sailed to exhibit poor 'hard mouthed' handling, but maybe I was unlucky.

The keel on my boat has a ballast bulb which is veed on the upper surface so when raised fairs in with the hull, so seems to prevent ingress of mud, shell & stones etc( and I've always suspected provides an 'end plate' hydrodynamic effect ) but I would suspect difficult to engineer on a larger boat.

I never have to antifoul the keel plate ( the boat is in the water on a half tide mud mooring for 7 months a year ) but certainly do have to maintain the keel in the winter, usually just a good scub then 'Metalshield' primer & topcoat.

We are lucky in having new keels and winches available off the shelf, this may be something to enquire about; though only a few of the 180 such boats made have required new keels, nothing made of steel lasts forever in salt water; also check electrics & anodes.

I and a lot of other people store our boats on high trestles allowing full access to the keels - these trestles are wooden DIY jobs which would again be harder at higher scales & weights, but viable with a touch of design skill, no doubt 'a touch more' expense too !

Other design solutions such as twin keels are not without their problems, and a lift example might make all the difference to getting through the French Canals or not ?
 
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How many £'s is a Southerly 101 compared to sun fizz? if below £10000 I would be inclined to spend the extra for the southerly.

Although I know nothing about lifting keels, I'm going on brand names here.
 
Seajet said:
I heard of a different, larger design which had a hairly moment when a novice crew kept pressing the 'up button' for an electrically raised keel; there was a microswitch to prevent over enthusiastic raising, but it was jammed; so the winch kept straining, the wire broke and the keel took out some of the boat's bottom, they were lucky to make it to beach her.
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That's the bit of my design that worries me. Although raised by hand, over straining is not going to be an issue, but the general condition of the lifting wire needs regular inspection, and replacement if in doubt. I strongly suspect if my lifting wire snapped with the keel fully up, the keel would end up on the sea bed and there would be a large hole in the bottom of the boat.
 
@Seajet:

Agree on the handling front - although I think it's more to do with the beamyness that modern lift-keelers have. Also, they often have titchy lifting rudders.

I've not done much creek crawling but I am able to nip up the Medina without much water and generally take a few shortcuts. The other benefit of the lift keel is that it gives you a get-out-of-jail card if you do hit the sand. Just yank it up and carry on.
 
Pro Dave & Solent Boat,


the keel wire has to be replaced every few years and 'over-straining' with even manual winches - if the keel is jammed in some way - can be a real condsideration, in my boat when the tufnol roller on the keel lift purchase split it gave a jolt to the boat ( and my heart ! ) like the end of the world, fortunately no damage.

I always do a test-raise of the keel before launching in case the paint is too thick, so was able to get a new roller made.

Another point to bear in mind is that while one is instinctively drawn to stainless wire, galvanised 7 X 19 mild steel is actually better as it's more flexible & takes to small radius rollers without nasty kinks & damage.
 
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Welcome to view.

Phil

Our TS 240 has an hydraulic/electric pump up keel. It is in fact a 12 volt truck tail lift pump! It also has a manual pump as a back up in the event of a flat battery.

We have found the LK invaluable in our cruising area and last year in Brittany.
It enabled us to happily float at low tide right in Mermaid Cove pool:) at Llandwyn.

It also means that we can access the outer harbour at PD if we arrive a little later than expected.

Ours has a considerable bulb at the bottom which means drying out carries no fears of jamming stuff in the slot but in order to stay upright I prefer a soft bottom to sink into:) .

Having the lift keel means you can reverse into a beach to drop off the stern ladder onto dry land or at most knee height depending on shelving. Useful if just exercising the dogs:)

We operate ours off a 100ah battery that is used for all systems. For the last two years we have had enough solar charging from one weekend to the next to make up for the occasional pump use.

The power draw is similar to a windlass/thruster but is for a maximum of 30- 40 seconds to go from 1.7m draft to 0.5. You only operate a solenoid for it to lower much more slowly under gravity.

You need to budget for routine maintenance every 3 years minimum.
Which can involve complete keel removal and is expensive.

We are hoping to crane in sometime in March so you are welcome to look at the set up in our boat.

Beverley has always said if we trade up we will be looking for another lift keel. Southerly looks a bit out of our price range at the moment.:D


Steve
 
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