Lifting Keel, Twin Rudders

[Stoshak]

I'm wondering about a 32ft Ben or Jan with lifting keel and twin rudders, and would value opinions on one or two concerns, such as,

Manoeverability without prop thrust on the rudders.
Do they take the ground as well as a bilge keeler?
Reliability of the lifting mechanism?
Sailing performance.

Or is it better to go for the shallow keel version and lose the versatily in the interests of simplicity.

 

[wotayottie]

Taking your questions in turn:

1/ Southerly with a similar keel / rudder system strongly recommend a bow thruster because of lack of prop wash.
2/ No they dont. When I asked them Benny said they werent recommended for drying moorings but foir occasional drying out and for shallow draft. Think of all the shopping trolleys. old bikes etc out there on the sea bed.
3/ Any mechanism wears and I believe the Benny one needs some ridiculous number of turns of the winch handle to raise the keel, something wqhich re-emphasises the point above about drying moorings. It will need maintenance.
4/ Dont know, but you can expect the boat to be tender.

 

[snowleopard]

Having lived with lift keels for a few seasons my main concern would be the build-up of fouling and stones getting pushed up inside the case when grounding. It's not much fun diving under a boat to free a jammed keel.

When out of the water you'll need to be able to lower the keel to paint it (high cradle or patient crane driver) and even then it's hard to clean & antifoul the inside of the case.

I wouldn't worry about stability as it's allowed for in design but remember that for coding, you can only rely on the ballast effect of a lowered keel if you can lock it down to prevent it retracting in a knock-down.

Ours had 1" dia nylon rods as pivots and they showed hardly any wear after 15 years use - quite amazing.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Sailed a Benny 260 Spirit a few times. It took a ridiculous amount of time to lift the keel, winding away with a winch handle stuck in the saloon table. I concluded it wasn't something I'd want to do
a) in a hurry in an emergency or
b) very often.

 

[Jonathanpaul]

I have a First 26 with a lift keel 90 turns to get it up but don't need to do it very often it sits on the keel so no stones in the slot and has legs for hard ground. Very happy with it. My is not drying, I would agree for a drying mooring not the best but otherwise lets you get around in shalow waters easily.

 

[cookjwm]

The lifting bit of the ben keel looks very very like the keel on the first 26. They do not point particularly well and I echo the views of others in terms of no. of turns needed!. Had a problem with ours -the st.st. yoke broke and keel had to come off. Great boat though!
Personally we decided against lifting and went for shallow fixed 1.5m draught keel instead. I cannot think that the bens windawrd performance will be better than moderate.

 

[Jonathanpaul]

I have been racing it last week and against loads of other types of boats it pointed beter than most even with my old sails on. A brand new folkboat in GRP only pointed very slightly higher.

 

[EdWingfield]

I have a 10m Beneteau with wing keel + centre-plate and twin rudders.

1. She requires water flow across the rudder blades to manoeuvre. Adv is that prop thrust is more efficient.

2. Mine will take the ground ok. But not as carefree as a bilge keel. Best that you know that the ground is flattish. Saying that, I once grounded on the edge of a creek and the boat settled at a wierd angle but quite stable. The rudders are not supposed to bear much weight so flat ground is always best.

3. Lifting mechanism reliable so far (6yrs) But I dread the day when it has to be maintained/renewed. 98 turns but only needed when closehauled.

4. More tender than a deep fin model. I must reef sooner.

Shallow fin definately simpler but misses out on drying out in the shallow places - often free, often quiet, often beautiful.

 

[FullCircle]

I have a Jeanneau SO 35 Lift Keel.
The Rudder boots are 70 quid each.

 

[FullCircle]

Its very good at anchor, as the wing keel damps rolling motion.

It needs careful handling in a marina as no prop wash to tighten radius of turn. Increase revs gives wider radius. I will have a bow thruster when I can afford it.

Dont try and steer it before you reach 2 knots under way. Backing out of tight marina berths is a hoot.

I go where most boats dont, especially muddy creeks and across shallow bits.

It dries out very nicely thank you.

102 turns to get the keel up. Do it with a Makita power drill thats had a winch bit inserted. Alternatively, if you hit anything, it comes up and stays up.

I only use the keel down beating above an F4, i.e when I have just reefed.

The boat is not good at going upwind. It is very good from fine reach going aft. Do reef early, theres a good chap.

The boat weighs 650kg more than its fin keel sister, so it sits lower on the waterline.

It is very good for the area I sail it. The East Coast.

 

[Greenwichman]

Have sailed a Ben First 285 for 5 years and chartered a Ben 323 this summer. If - like me - you sail in shoal waters the liftkeel/twin rudders option is brilliant.

Performance to windward is inevitably the principal compromise; the design is relatively tender, but early reefing helps.

Mechanism needs conscientious maintenance, but even so mine has just failed (boat is 18 years old) and the new kit is £1000 incl VAT. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Boat dries upright on a smooth sea bed and rudder construction is substantial (eg OK for mid-season scrub), but I agree with others that regular drying is probably not what the designer had in mind.

Despite drawbacks, I would go for liftkeel again.

Feel free to PM me if you need more.

 

[stevecray]

I have a Beneteau 331 (10.3m) with a lift keel. Generally I am very happy with it and don't regret my choice, but as always it is a bit of a compromise. My view on your specific questions and some other observations....

Maneuverability without prop thrust on the rudders - fine ahead even at relatively slow speed, but coming out of my marina berth stern first I might as well not bother trying to turn against the prop walk - not necessarily a big issue, just means I reverse out in to the fairway. It does make a difference if you have the keel down, though even with the keel up you still have the benefit of the 0.5m or so of fixed keel that the moving part retracts in to.

Do they take the ground as well as a bilge keeler? - Nothing to add beyond the comments already posted above.

Reliability of the lifting mechanism? – some of the earlier Beneteau lifting keel mechanisms had problems with corrosion due to the use of dissimilar metals, though this was overcome by fitting a sacrificial anode to the later designs. Apart from that the mechanism is very simple and providing you grease it occasionally, I don’t see why it should be an issue. On mine you can grease the thread by winding the mechanism while the boat is dried out and instead of the keel lowering, the lifting mechanism extends in to the cabin exposing the threaded section. Other benefits of the lifting design that for me out weighs the potential maintenance are that the minimal draft with the keel up (on my boat only 0.9m) which is significantly less than most shoal draft fins and can make a real difference to when you can get in / out of restricted marinas / harbours. I keep my boat in Chichester marina and it can be a real advantage when other boats are waiting for 1.5m or so to lock in / out. Good example is next weekend, I can get out an hour earlier and in an hour later than I could if I needed 1.5m – not only does this extend the range, but help avoid the queues. Same applies to getting in / out of Bembridge. Also, if you have the keel down and do miss judge slightly (doesn’t everyone just very occasionally?) at least you have the option to raise the keel and get free. If you have the keel down and hit the putty, the keel swings back/up slowing you down gently – has to be safer than coming to an immediate halt (I appreciate you should not be in this situation, but….).

Sailing Performance - With regards to how high you can point – I don’t notice any significant difference with fin keelers. I do find that close hauled, you need to reef early as once you have lifted a rudder out of the water, she will round up in a gust. With a bit more breeze in a F7, with 2 reefs in I have been very pleased with the sailing performance – hardly heroic territory I know, but that’s enough for me.

It takes 103 turns of the handle to lower or raise the keel – very little physical effort required (not a problem for my 6 & 7 year olds!) so that only takes short time.

So as I said at the start, it’s a compromise, depends on what you are going to use the boat for, but I am pleased with my choice. I am not sure where you are, but I found David Smith of Chichester Harbour Brokerage to be very knowledgably and helpful (I have no links or interests in their business!) and I think they have a 331 lift keel on their books at the moment.

 

[moondancer]

I bought a lift keel Sonata once, expecting to do loads of shallow creeks etc. Very quickly wished I had bought the fin keel version as I got fed up of not pointing upwind as well as the other Sonatas. Also, I never really ended up going anywhere I couldn't go in a fin keeler.

 

[tyce]

have you thought about one of the parker lift keel boats, in my rather biased opinion they are cracking boats and the newer ones have electric keel lifts.

 

[brianhumber]

I would not sell my Barracuda - nothing else around to replace with that can sit on a sandy beach, easy to steer in marinas, sail with wife only or have a ball without breaking bits at over 14kts with your mates.

 

[Bav34]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not sell my Barracuda

[/ QUOTE ]

Having just won the lottery I was going to offer you £35 million for it /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Shame. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif