LIFERAFTS !!! arg - all at sea - which one?

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CharlesM

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Hello all

I am looking at purchasing a liferaft.

They seem exorbitantly priced, and I cannot figure out my requirements.. The names - Transocean, Cruiser, Ocean, Blue Water etc!!?? single floor / double floor watchamagoodymakallit ect.

I would like to do a circumnavigation some time (need to convince HER), but do not imagine doing more than cruising the Caribbean and the South American coast for at least the next two years. Boat is 43' but mostly will be she and I so 4 man canister.

Now, do I really need to spend 1500 pounds on a liferaft or will 600 (and a good EPIRB) do? Arghhh - I dont know what to do :-( /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

fwiw I have loads of other things I need to do on the boat so this is not an isolated expense...

Cheers
Charles
 
IMHO to answer You one must know: do You need one? Would a good Zodiac do an adequate service?
Only if I was planning to do serious blue water cruising, I would buy a raft; do remember that in this sector it is always true that You get what You pay for; be aware that some of the very economical rafts are often useless in case of need (they won't open, the paddle provided is really a toy shovel, rope ladders will detach as soon as You try to climm them, etc...).
As one does not have ANY possibility to check what is in the container and as if He disappears in the high seas nobody could establish the raft responsibility in this, You can only HOPE that major names in the business behave honestly: I have documentation of court litigations and of Ministere de la Marine (France) as well as italian Courts banning the sale of certain rafts.
Myself, I had to change the raft as in Italy it is mandatory and must comply to ISO 8056 (if I got it right), which implies raft has to be provided with drinkable water and food provisions: the resulting 8 person valise is "Unmouvable", specially if sick, hurt, stressed or in a difficult boat setting; IMHO better have 2 X 4 people rafts; in Your case buy one 4 people and rent another if and when necessary.
Still, I'd rather stay in an annex, may be with a kite for manouvering.
Cheers,
Gianenrico
 
I wouldnt spend 1500, in most cases you are paying for the name. Liferafts have to meet the required standard anyway. I would get a double floor if you are doing any sailing where cold water or extreme conditions are expected.

I wouldnt fancy being in a raft in strong wind and waves any how so at the end of the day its there in case of fire or collision.

Is the boat going to be raced? (RORC/ORC regs) and is it going to be coded?- are the main questions to ask yourself

ISAF regs are another excuse to charge more money and are appropriate for vessels over 13.7m

Canister v. valise - personal preference with respect to storage
 
wrong, gianenrico

Even in only a moderate sea you'll be swamped in a zodiac or any other tender - It is most certainly NOT ok to have a zodiac as an alternative to a liferaft, except perhaps in a river but even then the release and/or inflating of a zodiac is quite a different prtoposition from a liferaft.

It's a teeny bit thoughtles to suggest doing without a liferaft especially to someone at the downwind end of the caribean trade winds who is also considering a circumnavigation.

JohnM, you need a liferaft. I'd have two if doing serious blue water cruising on big enuf boat, and they might or might not be the cheap ones, i dunno the various pros and cons. Altho some peeps are adrift for days or weeks, so an ordinary grabbag mite not be enuf either. Two is praps a bit ott but they can get hoiked off the boat, or go adrift as people gettem ready too early in big sea.
 
thoughts on the issue

I have gone through the thoughts of the tender as liferaft, and have decided a liferaft.

I have decided on 4 man as usually it will be 2 and sometimes guests - 6 man may be to much for 2 in a rough sea...

I have decided on Canister so it can live on the aft deck, although will of course need to be able to pass through the main hatch when storing the boat.

I don't think it makes sence selecting the life raft based on the grab bag goodies included as you can always create your own with a little effort and thought. It is the liferaft itself I am concerned about. Fo example - will the Seago one keep me and my babe alive for a week or two? I think I would prefer double floor, but does it have to be transocean or whatever.

No racing, no chartering, 13.2 m boat, purely safety considerations.

Dunno what to do. I have found a place that sells the Plastimo Cruiser liferafts at under 1000 pounds, but are they good enough for my requirements?

Will then also need to ship to st. martin...

This is a mission :-(
 
Re: wrong, gianenrico

Doing the RYA Survival at Sea course and reading the report on the 98 Sydney Hobart convinced me that the new self righting rafts are the only way to go if you can afford it. Many liferafts manufacturers (including some respected names) have not changed their designs for donkey's years despite the advances in technology and the many lessons learnt from various incidents, hence IMHO, look at those who have.
 
shipping to st martin

erm, this sounds ott? I bet youcould source summink there, no? I would. Bear in mind that a canister thing will need to be securely mouted etc. so if going the shipping route praps choose a valise which can be stashed in cockpit locker. On a passage of any distance you should obviously make sure it is to hand rather than under all warps and fenders...
 
Re: thoughts on the issue

An ORC/RORC Spec is probably enough plus grab bag with the extras is probably OK. As someone above said double floor or insulated floor essential if you are going to be exposed to cold water or for any length of time.

Probably the most important thing is the boarding and righting arrangements - you should always step up into the raft if possible but trying to drag yourself in on the arrangements in some of the cheaper rafts is impossible. Hence ISAF and SOLAS B rafts have to have a boarding step (inflates) that makes entry from the water easier. As a minimum it must have a good weighted deep ladder that has rungs that continue into the opposite side of the raft to help drag yourself in - do a Sea Survival course and find out why!
 
Well, I bought one of the £1500 kind. Mainly for peace of mind when sailing with the family.

My argument was that since you can't see in the box you may as well buy the name, but when I read the handbook I noticed that the English was not the grammatically faultless prose that we English associate with the Welsh, which alerted me to the fact that the Frogs who bought the name are getting the stuff made by semiliterate Hungarians, who doubtless cost a good deal less to employ than the Welsh men and women whose workmanship made the brand name what it is.

I feel I was ripped off.
 
If you need it in anger you will not complain about the money spent.

Do a sea survival course before you buy. It will show you what to look for in liferaft design.

My sea survival ticket runs out next year. This time I want to do the couse in South Shields. Apparently they can simulate F10 in their pool. Think Boy Scouts, The 7 Ps, and "Time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted".
 
Re: thoughts on the issue

Charles

I recently read in Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" that is it key not to have a 6 man raft if there are only 2 of you, because the required buoyancy (and therefore stability) is calculated uising an estimate of the weight of the people in it, so 2 persons in a 6 person raft will not provide sufficient "ballast".

Like someone else in this post, he also recommends having 2x 4 man ones rather than a 6 or 8 man, particularly if the size/number of crew varies according to the trip.

More food for thought??

Nick & Pam
 
Re: thoughts on the issue

Hi Charles

Think on what condition you might be in when you come to deploy it and then go on a sea safety survival course. You will then find out just how difficult is is to get into a raft from the sea . Climbing over two tubes if you are as corpulent as I am is virtually impossible. So I got a Zodiac Kadematic raft which has the top tube split at the entry port to enable those like me to get in easily..

If you're likely to be sailing in cold water you will need an insulated floor. If you can get an inflatable floor then so much the better as that will give a more comfortable seat and keep the bum warm.

Local sailing I keep mars bars , water and GTN in the grab bag. cross north sea voyages get more mars bars and small plastic bottles of schweppes tonic water.

Stay safe

Ken
 
There is a completely new international ISO 9650 standard about to be published for liferafts. This will ensure that any liferaft meeting this standard can be relied on.
In your shoes I would not make any purchase until I was sure my new raft met this standard. At the moment its a minefield



This from the Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) web site

It is essential for every water user to know exactly what they are buying and what to expect from their liferaft and the recent agreement to finalise ISO 9650 as an International Standard for liferafts, will go a long way to clarifying this for the liferaft user. Some small issues, mainly concerning grab bags, are still being finalised but these, and full details of the new raft will be published soon.

The new Standard is in three parts with the aim of parts 1 and 2, detailing the rafts themselves, to provide ‘a reasonably safe refuge for a shipwrecked person awaiting rescue’ and ‘a reasonable service lifetime, provided a user meets a manufacturer’s clearly specified recommendations on stowage and maintenance’. Issues such as offshore or coastal use, likely ambient temperatures, daytime or at night and in busy or relatively traffic-free areas have all been considerations to form these standards. Part 3 deals with the materials used for the manufacture of liferafts.

The introduction of the new ISO Lifraft heralds a new chapter in lifrafts safety. From now on, be wary of purchasing a liferaft which refers to the ‘ORC’; the ISAF liferaft regulation (Appendix A Part 2) and the ISO Offshore (part 1) rafts replace the old ORC specifications.

You should also avoid a liferaft with any reference to the RORC standard.

The ISAF liferaft can also be used in conjunction with the current Codes of Practice and are a requirement for Class XII legislation which affects all UK Registered vessels over 45ft (13.7m) LOA.
 
Hi Graham

I had thought about marketing such items years ago, but was dismayed to find they already exist.

The Mothership is about 17-19 tons, so that would require boyancy bags of at least 19 cubic meters to be neutral... probably more like 24 cubic meters to stay afloat with a relative levle of comfort.

It is perhaps a much better option though... will need to think on it some.

Thanks for bringing the idea up.

Charles

oh - I am considering getting a £600 one for my Caribbean and costal cruising, and perhaps upgrading in a couple of years time when a more serious one is required...
 
Keep at it! Mine is only about 7 tons!

With watertight bulkheads (or nearly so) the problem becomes much less. There was a scheme to install bags under the berth cushions but the problem seemed to be tethering them. Is it not sufficient to let them come to rest against the cabin roof?

Reduces the living space a bit though!
 
look at the servicing options available for the choosen liferaft. If you do a circumnavigation, you have to service it. Liferaft servicing is done mostly for commercial shipping. Having a "hightech" liferaft is not such a good idea. Like a vacuum bagged liferaft. Who is going to reseal it ? The expensive liferaft have a non pvc fabric and compresssed air, the cheap liferafts have pvc fabric and CO2 for inflation. The CO2 is temperature sensitive.
During the inspection, the security valves are checked for proper working, if the valves are stuck, the liferaft my rupture due to high pressure. Mine have failed the test once.

When you have done your first ocean crossing, just 2 persons on board, your opinion about the liferaft is slightly changing. Liferafts are assoziated with storm, disaster, 25 meter high waves etc. But during a circumnavigation, the storm image fades and such "small" things like a broken rudder with no steering, a heavy leaking propeller shaft or fire on board is more coming to mind. In the pacific, you are on your own, no commercial shipping going your way. A good, serviced liferaft keeps your phantasy low. I have a bfa liferaft, lowtech, you can "service" it by yourself, if need arise.

My next service ist in January and I will tell them, to remove the emergency pack. It contains 2 liter of water, batteries, flares and seasickness tablets. This pack costs a fortune to replace, so I will do it myself and keep it separate.

Peter
 
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