Legalities of no CE Marking

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ontheplane

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Was looking at this boat on eBay, with slight interest.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1995-BAYL...7010807?pt=UK_Power_Boats&hash=item259bc295f7

However when I mailed the seller it came out the boat is not CE Marked.

I thought it was illegal to sell a boat that is not CE marked at this age, but is that correct or not?

If it's not a legal requirement, I might still be interested, but how much less would a non-CE marked boat be worth do people think?

Looking around, the boat is at the top end price-wise anyhow - and I think worth much less if not CE marked?
 
I am no expert, but as I understand it, the CE marking pertains to conformity with the recreational craft directive (RCD). The CE mark (and associated declaration of conformity / other requirements) basically "This product complies with all relevant EU directives for its intended use".

The recreational craft directive came into force for craft which entered the EU market on or after 16th June 1996. Assuming the boat really is a 1995 model, and it was imported to somewhere in the EU before this time, then conformance with the RCD is not required. By inference, there would then be (AFAIK) no other EU directives to which the craft must conform, and therefore you are 'multiplying by zero', and thus no CE mark is required.

However, if the same 1995 boat was imported on or after 16th June 1996, all bets are off, and the provisions of the RCD are required (which includes CE marking and the supporting declaration of conformity, amongst other requirements).

I don't know how lack of the CE mark would affect residual value, but practically speaking, if you're questioning the legalities, you're only going to pay what you feel is a 'bargain price' for it. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to assume that anybody who comes to buy the boat from you won't do the same. It's not really an issue though, if you do feel it's a bargain.

I am not sure how your insurers will see it though. If the understanding I wrote above is wrong, then I guess you will have a hard time insuring it at all (or at least, claiming on insurance), and even if my understanding is correct, it may load your insurance premium a bit... worth a check!

Of course, this could all be total garbage! :)
 
ontheplane said:
Was looking at this boat on eBay, with slight interest.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1995-BAYL...7010807?pt=UK_Power_Boats&hash=item259bc295f7

However when I mailed the seller it came out the boat is not CE Marked.

I thought it was illegal to sell a boat that is not CE marked at this age, but is that correct or not?

If it's not a legal requirement, I might still be interested, but how much less would a non-CE marked boat be worth do people think?

Looking around, the boat is at the top end price-wise anyhow - and I think worth much less if not CE marked?
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Irrelevant for this boat, assuming it was in the EU in 1998 when the RCD/CE came in. If it was imported after that then it would have needed a CE mark on import to be legal, but the responsibility for that lies with the importer.

As to value, it makes no difference if it is legal. On a newer boat the lack of compliance would have some effect on value, but depends on the buyer's attitude to risk buying an illegally imported boat, but a starting point might be the cost of compliance, which on some boats could be small but on others substantial.
 
Thanks

The listing says clearly that "THAT WE HAVE OWNED FOR ABOUT 7 YEARS NOW. WE BOUGHT IT FROM A BOAT DEALER IN MIAMI, FLORIDA AND HAD IT SHIPPED OVER. "

So that means they shipped it approx 2008.

I take it then, that this would mean they should have CE'd it before they try to sell it? Does the fact they have had it for 7 years mean they can sell it without certifying it?

Ta
 
B
ontheplane said:
Thanks

The listing says clearly that "THAT WE HAVE OWNED FOR ABOUT 7 YEARS NOW. WE BOUGHT IT FROM A BOAT DEALER IN MIAMI, FLORIDA AND HAD IT SHIPPED OVER. "

So that means they shipped it approx 2008.

I take it then, that this would mean they should have CE'd it before they try to sell it? Does the fact they have had it for 7 years mean they can sell it without certifying it?

Ta
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If they imported the boat from Florida in 2008, then legally they should have got it CE marked before they used it. You should ask them to arrange for th CE marking before you hand any money over.
 
annageek said:
I am no expert, but as I understand it, the CE marking pertains to conformity with the recreational craft directive (RCD). The CE mark (and associated declaration of conformity / other requirements) basically "This product complies with all relevant EU directives for its intended use".

The recreational craft directive came into force for craft which entered the EU market on or after 16th June 1996. Assuming the boat really is a 1995 model, and it was imported to somewhere in the EU before this time, then conformance with the RCD is not required. By inference, there would then be (AFAIK) no other EU directives to which the craft must conform, and therefore you are 'multiplying by zero', and thus no CE mark is required.

However, if the same 1995 boat was imported on or after 16th June 1996, all bets are off, and the provisions of the RCD are required (which includes CE marking and the supporting declaration of conformity, amongst other requirements).

I don't know how lack of the CE mark would affect residual value, but practically speaking, if you're questioning the legalities, you're only going to pay what you feel is a 'bargain price' for it. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to assume that anybody who comes to buy the boat from you won't do the same. It's not really an issue though, if you do feel it's a bargain.

I am not sure how your insurers will see it though. If the understanding I wrote above is wrong, then I guess you will have a hard time insuring it at all (or at least, claiming on insurance), and even if my understanding is correct, it may load your insurance premium a bit... worth a check!

Of course, this could all be total garbage! :)
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Not garbage Anna, all perfectly correct in my view.
 
The listing says clearly that "THAT WE HAVE OWNED FOR ABOUT 7 YEARS NOW. WE BOUGHT IT FROM A BOAT DEALER IN MIAMI, FLORIDA AND HAD IT SHIPPED OVER. "
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Does it? No it doesn't! I can't see that anywhere... :p

There is some exception to the RCD about a boat that is constructed privately for private use only. If it's not out on the market for 5 years following construction, then the RCD doesn't apply. This doesn't apply though, unless Mr Bayliner built that very boat himself, at home, in his garage, for his own use, and didn't sell it for 5 years (whether that be in the EU or not)... Technically possible, though I wouldn't fancy arguing that in court!!!

If they imported the boat from Florida in 2008, then legally they should have got it CE marked before they used it.
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Is that completely true? If they imported it (tax paid, presumably) for private use, i.e. not placing it on the market in the EU, then, as I understand it, the RCD hasn't needed to apply yet. I could be wrong on this.

If this is the case, though, what's the difference in importing a (potentially non-RCD compliant) boat for private use for 5 over years before selling it, and building your own (potentially non-RCD compliant) boat for private use for over 5 years before selling it? It may not be the letter of the law, but in my humble opinion, there is very little practical difference.

Also, if you sell a product privately (i.e. consumer to consumer), and not part of a business venture, do these directives actually apply? If i were to go on holiday in Australia and buy a hairdryer for personal use, bought it back to the EU (declaring it and paying duty on it as required) with the intention of keeping it for personal use, then sold it on eBay, I wouldn't expect to have to have to put it though the testing / certification processes and raise the necessary documentation etc. Most of consumer law stops applying when it's a private consumer-to-consumer 'second-hand' sales, so why shouldn't EU directives?
 
This issue crops up here from time to time.
I would like to know if anyone has ever been prosecuted or had other issues as a result of owning, selling or buying a non CE marked boat that should have been so marked.
The only issues I have known of are dealers not accepting in part ex or brokers not accepting for sale.
 
From the RYA ...........
Virtually all recreational craft built since 16 June 1998 and intended for sport and leisure use, may only be placed on
the EEA market or put into service within the EEA if they meet the essential safety requirements set out in the
Recreational Craft Directive – 2003/44/EC.

.
 
I imported a Boat from Florida in 2008 and had it CE Marked / RCD Compliance checked. Cost about £3,000 for a 42 foot SeaRay Sundancer.

My understanding at the time was that it is illegal to "put it into use" without getting the relevant checks etc carried and any changes needed completed.

Therefore the seller has already broken the law, selling it without a check would no doubt be a further breach.

Graham
 
Yes, boat needs to be certified and the seller should not have used or put it onto the market without.

The good news, from 1st hand experience, is that you should be able to get a 2655 certified for under £1k including all necessary parts. In fact, Bayliner publishes a list of things for you to do. That said, it is a large % of the value, so offer accordingly?

Furthermore, unless you have an aircon or after-market stuff, you should be able to convert it to 100% UK spec very easily, no need for transformers, and the value should be identical to an UK boat. If someone suggests otherwise, you point out that it is identical, and all were imported at some stage. Happy to advise on electrics if you get there.

I would be more concerned about the things to fix e.g cabin door, and the fact it has not been used much. But, need not be show stoppers and it is a great model for coastal use.
 
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Should have read the listing more thoroughly. Yes, Eugene is right. It should have been CE marked on import so it is illegal for the current owner to either use it or sell it. However, there does not seem to be much evidence of Trading Standards taking action in such cases. It would make sense, given that it is relatively easy and not expensive to get a CE mark, to get it done either at the seller's expense or with an appropriate price adjustment.

Most important make sure you get the original customs receipt for VAT payment.
 
Just for clarification to dates mentioned in this thread. It is 1996 - not 1998:
13. Is my boat subject to the Recreational Craft Directive?
Different criteria must be taken into account in order to determine whether your craft falls into the scope of the Recreational Craft Directive:

- The size of the craft: only boats whose size is comprised between 2.5 meters and 24 meters are concerned by the Directive

- The intended use of the craft: The Directive only affects boats that are intended for sports and leisure activities.

- The date of the placing of the craft on the EU/EEA Market: this date must be posterior to the date of the entry into force of the Directive in the Member States (which was 16 June 1996 for Directive 94/25/EC). Boats which were already on the EU/EEA market at this date do not need to comply with the requirements of the Recreational Craft Directive.
Click to expand...
 
CE mark certification gives the legalisation conformity for crafts or boats dealer imports from America to European region and important for matching all current International Organization for Standardization. The main objective of this certification is to minimize the risk of fire, explosion, or contamination boat and applies to all vessels registered.
 
Just for clarity


WHAT IS THE RCD

The Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) is a trade directive that became law on the 16th June 1996. A two-year introductory period was allowed for and therefore new craft placed on the market after the 16th June 1998 must comply with the mandatory requirements of the Directive.


EXEMPTIONS

· Craft smaller than 2.5m and larger than 24m.

· Craft that were completely finished before 16th June 1998.

· Completed craft that were sold before the 16th June 1998.

· Craft built for own use provided that they are not subsequently placed on the community market during a period of 5 years.

· Gondolas etc.

RESPONSIBILITY

Lies with the company or person first placing the product on the European market. The Directive is only enforced once during the life of the craft i.e. at the first point of sale on the transfer of ownership. The responsible person shall ensure that all aspects of the Directive are complied with. Each craft must be allocated a prescribed Craft Identification Number (CIN) and the craft must carry an approved CE Plate marked accordingly.
 
Spi D said:
What may seem odd is when a new country joins the EU (eg, Croatia). Over night all boats and other stuff goes CE compliant & VAT paid just by joining...
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Thats not true. What actually happened in Croatia was that all boats in the country under 8yrs old were obliged to have VAT paid on them before Croatia acceded to the EU. Yes there was a period before accession during which a reduced rate of VAT was available but all the same, there was most definitely a requirement for boats under 8yrs old to be VAT paid once Croatia acceded to the EU. The concession for boats over 8yrs old is similar to the concession available in the UK whereby boats beyond a certain age are not liable for VAT. The CE situation in Croatia was more of a grey area because in theory you could have kept a non CE compliant boat in Croatia before accession but in practice, the vast majority of boats in Croatia were supplied by European manufacturers or through European dealers and therefore already CE marked. Since accession and just like any other EU country, any boat imported into the country would have to be CE marked
 
lydiamight said:
Go buy yourself a label from these people http://www.labelsonline.co.uk/ce-an...Jg7bHK1a4SPHlqxmdBOXDrZMjeU2A8sjswaAtHR8P8HAQ
and stick it on your boat. I can't see that anyone would actually check to see if it was valid
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The boat only needs to conform to the RCD on the day it's put into use. After that the owner is entirely at liberty to reverse any changes made and, as far as I know, to take off the CE sticker.

No-one actually cares, though, for second-hand boats.
 
Spi D said:
FYI:

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/maritime/recreational-craft/index_en.htm

What may seem odd is when a new country joins the EU (eg, Croatia). Over night all boats and other stuff goes CE compliant & VAT paid just by joining...
Click to expand...
Deleted User said:
Thats not true. What actually happened in Croatia was that all boats in the country under 8yrs old were obliged to have VAT paid on them before Croatia acceded to the EU. Yes there was a period before accession during which a reduced rate of VAT was available but all the same, there was most definitely a requirement for boats under 8yrs old to be VAT paid once Croatia acceded to the EU. The concession for boats over 8yrs old is similar to the concession available in the UK whereby boats beyond a certain age are not liable for VAT. The CE situation in Croatia was more of a grey area because in theory you could have kept a non CE compliant boat in Croatia before accession but in practice, the vast majority of boats in Croatia were supplied by European manufacturers or through European dealers and therefore already CE marked. Since accession and just like any other EU country, any boat imported into the country would have to be CE marked
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You're both sort of a bit right. EU law and accession treaties generally (as SpiD sort of said) impose no obligation on any acceding country to apply a VAT to goods already in circulation. However, acceding countries have the freedom, if they so choose, to enact a VAT on goods already in circulation, and Croatia in 2013 and Malta in 2004 therefore created a low rate pre-accession VAT on just boats in an attempt to get money from non VAT paid boat owners (in other countries) by selling them a cheap "VAT paid" ticket. Thus the "obliged" in your 2nd sentence Deleted User was an obligation imposed by Croatia as a money making exercise targeted at non Croatian boat owners; it wasn't imposed by the EU VAT system. No-one in Croatia had to pay pre-accession VAT on their car or television in 2013 - those items are in free circulation in the EU VAT paid, even though no VAT has ever been paid on them.
 
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