Leg of mutton mainsails - the horrid truth...

[Mirelle]

In the days of my youth I owned two boats which had triangular mainsails. But for the last thirty years, since I Saw The Light, my boats have had four sided mainsails.

I have spent the past two weekends crewing for a friend aboard his perfectly nice Bermudian-rigged sloop.

He maintails that I am a "purist" who will go to great lengths to avoid using the engine - this is in part true, and may be down to the antiquity of the engine in our own boat - and I maintain that he has recourse to the starter switch rather often.

Now I know why...

For the last two weekends we made a point of doing things under sail only on his boat, and when he first luffed to drop the mainsail before picking up a mooring with wind against tide I was mystified.

Thus did I re-learn a horrid truth that I had forgotten over thirty years of trouble-free gaffering - you cannot drop, or hoist, a leg of mutton mainsail, unless the boat is pointing into the wind!

So, for all you Bermuda rig types, the procedure for getting your buoy, or anchoring, under sail with wind over tide, i.e. half the time, thus becomes:

1. Roll headsail.

2. Luff and drop main.

3. Unroll headsail.

4. Get mooring, or anchor.

5. Roll headsail.

This "performance" requires a certain amount of river...

Worse, if you find yourself running out of room, running under sail into a river, creek or harbour, the only way to stop the boat is to turn round and luff; if you have no room to do this, you are stuffed...

No wonder one sees leg of mutton rigged boats using their engines all the time. No wonder certain marinas and harbours on the south coast forbid manoeuvring under sail...

Downright unsafe and unseamanlike, I call it...

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 07/06/2004 10:53 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[bedouin]

I'm curious about this new "Leg of Mutton" rig - certainly sounds like an oddity. If you stick to a good old Bermudan you don't have any of the problems you describe /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

What mystifies me is that anyone would drop / roll away the headsail before dropping the main.



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[AndrewB]

Anything for an argument, Mirelle, but if you are trying to tell us that lowering/raising a gaff mainsail with wind behind when tide-rode on a mooring is sheer simplicity, well pull the other one. Not even the old-timers regarded that as practicable.

Now with a windsurfer, or a pushme-pullyou Wharram cat that allows the mainsail simply to rotate to the other end of the boat, you would be a happy man.

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[Mudhook]

Mirelle is partly right, but overlooks old tricks like scandalising the main, which will substantially depower a bermudian mainsail, or sheeting it in hard when going down wind, which stops it doing any work. Also modern inventions like swept-back spreaders (and other abominations like lazyjacks) make it essential to be more or less into wind when raising or dropping sail. On my own bermudian rigged boat I am happy to hoist, drop and reef the main while still sailing hard under the sheeted in genoa. I confess I am ignorant of gaff riged boats. Can you really drop the main with the wind right aft?

Regards, Mudhook

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[Mirelle]

Masthead rig; genoa rolled so the boat would lie head to wind whilst dropping main.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Mirelle]

This was a proper sort of Maurice Griffiths cruiser, no swept back spreaders or such...

Yes, you can drop a gaff main with the wind dead aft - I often do so when approaching our mooring, which is in a narrow bit of river, because typically I come up to it with a sea breeze against an ebb tide. Set up the topping lift, sheet in, grab the topsail sheet to stop the gaff swinging forward against the shrouds and down she comes.

One can set the mainsail when running, as well, but there is less call to do this, as one can drop a mooring or get an anchor under headsails, run clear of the tight spot, then luff onto a reach to get the main up, and at sea one would heave to to get it up, if one had stowed it for a gale or a calm.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 07/06/2004 11:39 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[tome]

We generally come well off the wind to roll the jib on our masthead Bermudan rig, using the main to blanket it. This makes for a tidy and effortless stow. In light winds (below F3) we sometimes start the engine to de-power and drop the main with the wind behind.

Any more wind and we release the halyard and turn briefly into the wind to drop. Once the battens are clear of the lowers we can turn off the wind again. I try to avoid flogging sails at all costs. Our genoa is twice the area of the main.

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[jamesjermain]

Hmmm! I think you are being a bit disingenuous Mirelle.

Most bermudan mains with well maintained tracks, sliders, cars etc will drop quite happily with the wind anywhere forward of the beam and most of the time even further aft; certainly mine will - even with lazyjacks, once you know the tricks.

I would certainly not make such a meal of picking up a mooring as you suggest.

Also, don't try to kid me that gaff is so wonderful. For one, what comes down at the run must to be hoisted again. The reason a gaff drops so quickly and easily is that it is driven by a heavy gaff. And to get it back up again not only requires two halyards - peak and throat - but probably two to one purchases and four times as much rope. Also I cannot remember a laced gaff main dropping cleanly under almost any circumstances. Also I will have sailed up the river so much faster than you that I will have had plenty of time to round up, drop the jib, drop the main, hoist all, drop all, pick up buoy, drop buoy pick it up again, launch dinghy and get the first round in before you enter the home reach. /forums/images/icons/smile.gifAh! suddenly I see the drawback./forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

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[bedouin]

I've honestly never heard of anyone doing that before - I'd be interested to know if anyone else regards that as normal practice. I can't imagine any circumstances where I would need to do that on my boat.

We would normally drop the main with the wind forward of the beam, always with the Genoa still set. In light airs it is possible to drop the main on any point of sail, but I tend to avoid this due to the risk of it snagging.

Two aspects of a bermudan rig can affect this:
(a) a fully battened main is harder to depower, and harder to hoist, drop on a reach or run.
(b) lazy jacks can make it difficult to hoist the main with the wind aft of the beam.

Sounds as if your friend either has an unusual rig or unusual habits /forums/images/icons/smile.gif


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[AndrewB]

Yes, I agree, it is a matter of well maintained track and sliders. My masthead rig yacht can be reefed on any point of sailing if necessary, though it complains a bit on a dead run.

I'd be interested in other people's opinions of scandalising. I've experimented a fair bit with this. The conventional design of my gooseneck only allows the boom to be raised to about 45 degrees. Its useful for getiing the main out the way quickly when on the wind (we do this when anchoring), but in practice the depowering effect is not that great, certainly not enough for close-quarters downwind manoevering. You have to be comfortable about allowing your sail to flog, not one for Mylar or heavily over-filled Dacron.

Modern masthead rig yachts generally have the advantage of a single large headsail which more than compensates for being unable to use the mainsail, even if under genoa alone it is not possible to sail quite so close to the wind. A trick we picked up for slow close-quarters manoevres is to half-drop it and get a bowman to hold the top part out taut to catch the wind, the sail is raised or lowered to keep the speed to something that just permits steerage, or headway against a foul tide.

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[NigeCh]

Smile ....

That's brought the old farts out again (Mine does a complete disappearing trick over the side in anything more than F5 as it's on a bolt rope )



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[snowleopard]

ok, just to stir the pot.... when i want to raise or lower my fully battened bermudian main i turn downwind, let the mainsheet go, then wander up to the foredeck to do it in peace and safety with the boom out over the bow, boat speed subtracted from the apparent wind and the sail docile.

you don't need an extra spar to do this, just no stays!

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[AndrewB]

PS re Leg of mutton mainsails.

I have some memory that E.F.Knights defines a leg-of-mutton rig as loose footed (as on a Drascombe Lugger) and therefore exceptionally handy from the point of view of letting fly.


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[AndrewB]

Re: Smile ....

BYM must be down, then. Still sailing Birgitta, Nige? We were out on Anita on Saturday.

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[NigeCh]

Unviversal Soldiers ....

Birgitta's still on the hard. It was a false economy keeping her on the water for 4 years and sailing her all the year round. The major cost is going to be preparing her for the IW 'Slow Boat to Horta' 2005 classic .... Is Jan going to venture forth too ????

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[Mirelle]

\"disingenuous\" - moi?

As if I would!

As soon as yotties start specifying that their preferred system works perfectly "if well maintained" their readers, yotties themselves, know they are making heavy weather of it...;-)

For pure maritime misery, try a "cheap", "neglected", fully battened mainsail with lazyjacks, a dark night, a rising wind and a lee shore... been there, done that thing, got the T shirt... stayed with gaff cutter, thanks!

I have had laced mainsails for thirty years - I did have a boat with mast hoops, but that was before the two with triangular mainsails - and have never known a problem with dropping the main. The lacing goes slack as soon as you ease the throat - assuming it is correctly rove - thus - VVVVV and not /////. The latter is simply wrong and unseamanlike, as any textbook will tell you...

Yes, more rope, but are we to believe that Bermudian rigged cruisers have no halyard winches?



<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[bedouin]

Re: PS re Leg of mutton mainsails.

Indeed you are right - a "Leg of Mutton" appears to apply to a mainsail flown without a boom, often set on a sprit. From what I can read that is a very odd rig for modern boat.



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[Mirelle]

Re: Unviversal Soldiers ....

So is Mirelle; the consequence of leaving her in for two, which is why I was crewing for a friend!

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Mirelle]

Why would anyone do that?

Hoist or lower the mainsail on a mooring with wind astern, I mean.

A very curious thing to want to do, and one likely to result in a fine old mess!

I was referring to hoisting and lowering the mainsail whilst under way.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[NigeCh]

So 2005 .... Horta ....

Yes ???

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