Leeway!!

[phatcat1]

As a new bigboat sailor moving up from cats, can someone please give me some guidance.
I have always sailed a fin keeler, but am looking for a bilge for the East coast mud!
How much extra leeway will a 36ft bilge suffer from in a F4 compared with an equivalent fin?

 

[Lakesailor]

Bit theoretical. Suck it and see.

 

[whisper]

Difficult to say as some bilge keelers point better than others - as I suppose do fin keelers. Afraid it's a "suck it and see" scenario really.
Welcome to the forum, by the way.

 

[sailorman]

welcome phatcat
why a bilge keeler ???
i sail the East Coast with near on 2 M draught or is it a drying mooring

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Phatcat... lots of sitting on the fence going on here!

Given that all the above answers are correct, and I agree that the only real way is to find out on the water... I suspect that however that what you are really asking is 'would a bilge keeler drive me mad through its poor performance to windward given that i'm a dinghy sailor and used to dinghy style handling?'... or am I wrong?

So as a VERY VERY rough rule of thumb, expect similar aged and similar shaped boats to see about 3 to 5 degrees extra leeway when tight to the wind.... although newer boats seem to perform much better.... and another major factor is sea state... some seas seem to affect bilge keelers much more than fin keels....

But continuing Sailormans theme... I draw 1.65m, fin keel, and I'm just moving my boat to the east coast with no concerns in mind....

 

[dickh]

I've also sailed the East coast with three previous fin keelers with no problem - I'v also scared the daylights out of friends who come down from the west coast of Scotland when they discover we are only in 3m of water! Mind you my first boat was a bilge keeler and I miss the creek crawling when it didn't matter if we went aground and had to wait a tide......... before floating again.

 

[phatcat1]

Thanks chaps! A shoal keel would be fine but the lure of drying out in places with very low!! costs is just too great!
Also the bos'n (she who must be obeyed!) likes the idea of exploring quiet drying creeks etc!

 

[Birdseye]

whats an equivalent fin? if you compare (as ST did) a bilge and shallow fin Legend 29 then there was no difference. Compare either of them with a First deep fin and it will probably mean at least 5 degrees. Plus, of course, there will be a difference in pointing ability too - which is not the same thing.

But then overcanvassing any boat can cause it to slip sideways. So you could even have a well sailed bilge keeper making less leway than a badly sailed fin.

My cat (Prout) used to sail similarly to a Westerley bilge in terms of pointing and leeway. So a First would make far fewer tacks up river, but we made it up with boat speed. You pays your money ................

 

[snowleopard]

[ QUOTE ]
...moving up from cats...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everyone would agree that is a valid concept /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[phatcat1]

......small cats.... ( kittens - i suppose!)... to something that resembles a floating caravan so the whole family can be together...Oh dear! So much for quiet, solitary sailing!

 

[gandy]

Just occurred to me. Why would a bilge/twin keeler not point so high? Is it because extra leeway moves the apparent wind forwards? Or because they heel more?

I once saw a web site where they compared fin, deep fin and twin keel Sadlers - which must nearly like for like. They compared "tacking angles" (twin was worst) but I'm not sure if that includes leeway or just heading.

Tony S

 

[Lakesailor]

I can't think they heel more. I have a Valiant 18 bilge keeler with 300kgs ballast in the keels. Fair enough it has pretty hard bilges but out on the water I probably heel less than any Firsts or Sonatas etc which I realise are designed to be tender initally. Even in my own (slow and tubby) category Shrimpers or Leisures or Jaguars I still seem to be more stable.
I put it down to the hard turn of the bilge and the fact that as you heel the windward keel has a much greater leverage as it is raised away from the centre of bouyancy.
It rarely gets beyond 30 degrees of heel and soon settles back. Consequently I rarely reef or have to play the gusts. I don't think it's particularly under-canvassed.

It certainly doesn't point as well as many yachts on the lake and leeway can be a problem, especially as we tend to always be trying to clear a lee shore hazard like a promontory.

I think I'll go for a Hunter Europa fin next time. They seem to sail where I wish I was going.

 

[fireball]

Bilge keelers may not heel so much, but the effective grip on the water is reduced as they do. This and the lack of "lift" generated by the keels compared to the fins contributes to leeway. Hard Chine boats have a tendancy to help grip the water more, whilst the rounded bottoms do not.

I would have thought that lack of pointing is mainly down to the rig and how it is set up, as even in 1 designs a noticable difference can be seen upwind! The hull and keel will obviously pay some part in this though.

We have a deep fin and can point comfortably at 30 degrees to apparent wind, the old 3/4 long keel we had was about 60 degrees before it gave up!!!

 

[Lakesailor]

Yes, my headsail is past it's best, and a 25 year old rig isn't going to be terrifically efficient. But your last paragraph does signal the underwater shape having a marked effect on pointing ability.

 

[fireball]

Erm - sorry, forgot to mention - the old boat (3/4 long keel) is 30+ years old ... and the deep fin is 11 ....
Just trying to think about the effect of pointing when sailing centreboardless in wayfarers ... but then we just sat someone up on the bow to dig the nose in, thus moving the pivot point forwards....

I don't think it would be fair to say that all bilge keelers can't point as high as all fins ..

 

[Lakesailor]

Agreed. I haven't had the opportunity to sail in company in like-for-like boats so it is all a bit subjective.

 

[ditchcrawler]

I sail a twin fin Hunter Pilot 27 on the east coast.The leeway is a bit more than a fin keeled boat but not a great deal.The Hunter twin keels seem to me to work quite well.I draw 1.05m & this lets me go to all sorts of places like round the back of Horsey island & across the Wade.We also sit on the keels going in & out of places on a rising tide pretending we meant to do it & make a cup of tea.Horses for courses.