LED Nav Lights - good or bad?

aknight

aknight

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yachtarabella.blogspot.com
Ran a search but couldn't see that this has been picked up (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

The May copy of YM (?) had a small item suggesting that LED nav lights might invalidate your insurance policy, although reading it carefully I couldn't actually make out what the justification for that was. They quoted an insurance man as saying something along the lines of "Um, well, they might but then again they might not..."

I am installing LED nav lights as part of Arabella's refit, and that decision is based partly on a number of factors:

1. my understanding that I will achieve a reduction in power consumption compared to conventional bulbs (a thorny issue with a boat as small as mine, where I want more capacity released to power nav instruments/autopilot).

2. LED's don't appear to 'blow' in the way that conventional bulbs do.

3. (more controversial possibly?) I thought that, assuming you bought the appropriate model of course, you stood at least as good, if not better, chance of being seen as with conventional nav lights.

With factors 1 and 2 in particular, I thought I'd done the sensible thing and increased the chances of having functioning nav lights (power for longer + less chance of failure), but maybe I haven't?

Aqua Signal and Hella Marine, both well-known brands, now have models out (at the moment I have had Hella LEDs fitted to the pushpit and pulpit and am considering the - cheaper - Aqua Signal tri for the masthead).

I don't have any technical contribution to make at all to this debate. Just curious as to whether I've made the wrong call, whether from the insurance point of view or from the perspective of the reasoning outlined above.
 
You are quite right about the power saving but the power consumption of led "bulbs" varies quite a bit for the same equivalent light output. For example compare ultraled's replacements with doctorled's replacements. Nevertheless a big power saving.

I am not sure what you mean by don't blow in the same way. Basic leds have a long life but the assemblies incorporate an electronic driver circuit. Some forum members have had some troubles.

The lights marketed by the main players should comply with the regulations regarding visibility and colour so they should be as visible as normal lights. the low current requirements do mean that you can fit a light that is the equivalent of a more powerful light than you might normally fit in a small boat. Like me you can legally fit a 10watt bulb in your tricolour instead of the usual 25 watt and make similar economies with the other lights. With the low power drain of an led light you can happily retain the equivalent of 25 watts etc.

Provided you fit lights that comply with all the relevant regs there really should not be an insurance issue. There is nothing to say that lights should be filament bulbs, it is the visible range and colour that are specified. It is true though that the regs include a section on the wattage of bulbs that normally achieve that visible range.

Maybe there could be issues with fitting led replacements for the normal bulbs in standard lamps.

I have noted the following for leds:

Ultraleds.co.uk
Doctorleds.com
ledshoponline.com
triton-marine.co.uk
 
Thanks, VicS, as ever you've explained the technicalities of the power consumption issue better than I could hope to.

By bulbs 'blowing' I was referring to the filament failing, which I understood would not be an issue with LEDs given their different construction to conventional bulbs. Point taken about the driver circuit though, which I noted from other threads.

I am going to take up the insurance issue with my insurers (GJW) tomorrow, before I commit to the tri-light.
 
Assuming you are fitting a properly approved light it woud be a good idea to be able to quote the relevant approval data etc. The manufacturers websites might be able to help in that respect. I'm sure that somewhere they must say that the light conform to xxxxxxx. Or that the approval certificate yyyyyy applies .

The problems with insurance may arise where an LED assembly is fitted in a lantern originally designed for a filament bulb. Any approval certificate will relate to the lantern fitted with the correct filament bulb. Deviating from that may well invalidate the certification.

I was wrong about the regs mentioning wattage of bulbs. It is the requirement to have the correct visible range that counts. There is an impressive formula that equates visible range with luminous intensity. The approval given to lights will also take into account the visible sectors and the colour (chromaticity).
 
I would agree with the previous comments. Fitting something else in an existing nav light may or may not void the certification. I am quite certain that an insurance company will try to lay the blame on you if they can /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fitting a new LED nav light that has the correct certification OTOH should not be an issue.

I had to do some work on my boat because of an accident last summer and decided to replace the two navlights (old Hella) with a combined LED. Reasons were that the old ones were in an awkward position, they had a tendency to get knocked about when enering marinas and had been repaired several times. Other reason was current consumption. The old pair drew 2x25W, whereas the new navlight draws 2.4W and has an 1M visibility. This is what it looks like:

http://www.pedago.fi/dalton/diverse/lopolight.jpg

I am not saying that a LED light cannot fail, but they have a 5-year warranty and a guaranteed life of 50.000h. The construction is very solid, machined solid aluminum and it is submersible to 100+ m /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
The detail that has not AFAIK been adressed with LED nav lights is their suitablity for a sailing boat as opposed to a power boat. The concern being their visibility at a heel angle.
With incandescent bulbs this does not make a great deal of difference as the beam is not very focussed.
With most LED bulbs the emitting material is covered by a focussing lens so that light while bright is emitted in a beam + or - 15 degrees or so. This dictates that for an anchor light you need a ring of LEDs each facing in a different direction ie 30 degrees per bulb and so 12 bulbs needed. OK fine for anchor light where +or- 15 degrees from the horizon is fine.
However for a stern light you might use just 6 bulbs in a semi circle but as soon as the boat goes to 45 degrees of heel then the light is fine dead astern but at the side has light showing into the water one side and into the sky the other. So you need a range of lights at least 3 levels of direction at the sides to provide coverage for modest heel angles.
So the same concern applies for the port and starboard lights which again will be ok straight forward but need lights pointing up and down for the side facing lights.
In other words all LED lights to my thinking should specify a max heel angle when claiming to meet visibility standards. maybe they do..........
Other wise LED should be great. They really are excellent when you want that directed beam. olewill comment????????????
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am quite certain that an insurance company will try to lay the blame on you if they can /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]That is the main issue with many of these standards related matters. If big money is on the table then assessors and loss adjustors will crawl all over everything to try to minimise the cost to their companies or client - it's their job to do that!
 
A guy on the Nic owners site was saying recently that he had probs with the high power shore charger "frying" the leds he had as cabin lights. I,m not great on electrics, maybe the circuit needs a voltage controller?
 
Most LED lanterns I have seen have built-in regulators. The Lopolights are rated 10 to 32V so you will probably fry other things first /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

For cabin lights, I adapted el-cheapo LED lamps with a GU-socket. They are adequate for reading at night. Also check out the offerings from IKEA /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif They have LED-strips and circular, very thin lamps that run off 12V and can be fastened with double-sided tape.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Most LED lanterns I have seen have built-in regulators

[/ QUOTE ] Likewise the LED asemblies that can replace the filament bulbs in popular navigation lights. Some have a wider acceptable voltage ranges than others though.

The "driver" circuits also give the Led arrays a constant light output independent of supply volts, within the spcified limits, unlike filament bulbs whose light intensity is very voltage dependent.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am quite certain that an insurance company will try to lay the blame on you if they can /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]That is the main issue with many of these standards related matters. If big money is on the table then assessors and loss adjustors will crawl all over everything to try to minimise the cost to their companies or client - it's their job to do that!

[/ QUOTE ]

In situations like this, whenever there is any doubt, I would write to the Ins. Co. explaining exactly what I have done and saying something like 'I assume this is acceptable unless I hear otherwise'.

I am no lawyer, but I would expect that to cover you???
 
[ QUOTE ]
In situations like this, whenever there is any doubt, I would write to the Ins. Co. explaining exactly what I have done and saying something like 'I assume this is acceptable unless I hear otherwise'.

I am no lawyer, but I would expect that to cover you???

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know that is reasonable. You are expecting an insurance company to stop what it is doing and put a technical person onto your particular issue "is product A satisfactory?". Surely the onus is on you to ensure (as far as reasonably possible) that what you use is certified and fit for purpose? e.g. buy your nav lights from a known and reputable supplier who states that the product meets the requirements for your class of vessel.

As a yachtsman you are deemed to be able to find out which regs and standards apply or are in existence and failure to keep to them must leave you exposed even if for only a proportion of the blame?
 
when looking at some of the comments in this thread, in particular about fitting lower wattage bulbs, heeling angles and bulb failure it might be worth having a look at the Ouzo report. Its made me think about my safety equipment. Lights were one of the issues covered.
 
Insurance???

For somewhat obvious reasons, the insurance question is an area of interest to me. On our web page http://www.bebi-electronics.com/specs.html , I cover quite a bit of info about LED's in general and the applicable COLREGs, including my opinion on the insurance, which is it could be used to invalidate a claim.

On the other hand, a long-standing customer of ours had this to report to us, via email (names edited based on the insurance companies dislaimer on the bottom of the email:

'We thought you would be interested in the following letter from our insurance agent in New Zealand. Our insurance is underwritten by Lloyds of London as are a large number of the cruising yacht policies. You may not have as much of a restriction on the use of your lights as Michael thought.'

(From the insurance company)'Thank you for your email. I apologise for the delay in responding.

We have no issues with which bulbs you decide to use in your navigation lights. This is the first time we’ve heard that other insurer’s may void policies due to LED lights.'

Personally, having had an insurance company try to deny a claim against a freighter which hit my boat whilst tied up in a marina, *AFTER GOING THRU SEVERAL DOCKS IN THE MARINA TO DO SO!*, I still would be very cautious dealing with an insurance company as they (the insurance company) claimed it was everybody's fault but the freighter!
 
Thanks for the wonderful range of responses. A couple of points:

1. I am contacting the insurers and will post here when they respond.

2. As stated on Michael's very informative site, new light fixtures, with a light source included by the manufacturer, may be certified. A careful review of the manufacturer's sites may be rewarding. Some models are certified (Aqua Signal actually gives links to PDF copies of the certificates). Other models, including certain Hella Marine LED lamps are merely said to "meet the requirements of" certain regulations (whereas Hella Marine go out of their way to state that other models have actually been "approved").
 
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