Learning the rule of the road.

[The Q]

Below the post power gives way to sail, above the post a vessel crossing the river gives way to one travelling parallel to the centreline of the river.

On the broads if you are crossing the river, say going from the sailing club to the moorings the other side of the river, you have to give way. But tacking up / down river the usual power gives way to sail . (subject to the limitations of size , draft and manouverability etc)

 

[KevinV]

I tend to get out of the way of working vessels if I can, purely out of courtesy because I'm out having fun while they're earning their living. The latter is more important in the big scheme of things and colregs don't really come into it. I do think it's a bit off for them to ask though - it's for me to offer.

 

[johnalison]

My AIS data shows we are a sailing vessel and our length. It not hard to see. Our speed is considerably less than theirs. We know we are visible at more than 10nm.
Even when we have told them we are sailing, they still want us to alter course

So does mine, but at night they weren’t initially to know if you were sailing. After the call of course things were different. Perhaps a polite request would have been more effective while staying within the regulations.

 

[capnsensible]

On the broads if you are crossing the river, say going from the sailing club to the moorings the other side of the river, you have to give way. But tacking up / down river the usual power gives way to sail . (subject to the limitations of size , draft and manouverability etc)

Is that extra finger useful when you are short tacking?

 

[geem]

So does mine, but at night they weren’t initially to know if you were sailing. After the call of course things were different. Perhaps a polite request would have been more effective while staying within the regulations.

The regulations are clear. We have right of way. They shouldn't be asking us to alter course when they know we are a slow moving sailing vessel. They have plenty of time to go around us and that is what should happen. Can you imagine the radio chatter in the Solent if everybody requested that the other boat alter course? It would make a mockery of the regulations. It would lead to far more near misses as interpretations of what was meant went wrong. Stick to the regs

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I am usually found on a drill floor of a drill ship, but on long transits I gravitate to the bridge because I enjoy that sort of thing. The thing that struck me, was the ocean is not that empty on the regular transit routes as everyone is using the same rhumb line to get from A to B. I noticed that there are frequent, slight adjustments to maintain clearance, not always port to port, but to ensure that the gap between vessels was sufficient to avoid anything like a close quarters situation. After the adjustment, the vessel was returned to its route. The company uses 3rd parties to plot routes that favour fuel saving by optimising currents, weather. Fuel saving is probably why a ship may ask a small vessel to move rather than the larger vessel. I have never experienced a yacht, drill ship ocean interaction though, but the rules are the rules.

 

[capnsensible]

The regulations are clear. We have right of way. They shouldn't be asking us to alter course when they know we are a slow moving sailing vessel. They have plenty of time to go around us and that is what should happen. Can you imagine the radio chatter in the Solent if everybody requested that the other boat alter course? It would make a mockery of the regulations. It would lead to far more near misses as interpretations of what was meant went wrong. Stick to the regs

We've chatted a bit to various vessels on the high seas. It's always been friendly and always resulted in the MV altering a bit. Have even been provided with football results.

Had a long chat with the skipper of a well wierd fishing vessel west of The Galapagos once. All in Spanish. Still not sure of everything he said, but we missed each other!!

Spent a lot of time sailing in the Straits of Gibraltar. That's one place with regular chat between bridge watchkeepers and isn't always that friendly.

 

[awol]

The regulations are clear. We have right of way. They shouldn't be asking us to alter course when they know we are a slow moving sailing vessel. They have plenty of time to go around us and that is what should happen. Can you imagine the radio chatter in the Solent if everybody requested that the other boat alter course? It would make a mockery of the regulations. It would lead to far more near misses as interpretations of what was meant went wrong. Stick to the regs

It's been a while but ........... No-one under IRPCS has "right of way". IRPCS has responsibilities but does not ascribe "rights". However, under RSS between competing (not necessarily in the same class or even race) boats can have rights.

 

[geem]

It's been a while but ........... No-one under IRPCS has "right of way". IRPCS has responsibilities but does not ascribe "rights". However, under RSS between competing (not necessarily in the same class or even race) boats can have rights.

Splitting hairs. I think most people understand the give way principles

 

[jbweston]

Splitting hairs. I think most people understand the give way principles

But isn't the problem that lots of people don't understand them, or if they do think it will save effort to try a 'workaround'?

I've enjoyed it on the few occasions when I've heard Vessel 2's reply to Vessel 1's VHF call asking how Vessel 2 will pass them: 'In accordance with the Collision Regulations'.

Anyway a 'right of way' is something that allows you to pass over someone else's land. I think it's best, if possible, to use the same terminology as in the ColRegs, particularly when talking to people whose first language isn't English, or inexperienced sailors who find the ColRegs difficult enough without introducing language that could mean something subtly different from that intended.

 

[johnalison]

The regulations are clear. We have right of way. They shouldn't be asking us to alter course when they know we are a slow moving sailing vessel. They have plenty of time to go around us and that is what should happen. Can you imagine the radio chatter in the Solent if everybody requested that the other boat alter course? It would make a mockery of the regulations. It would lead to far more near misses as interpretations of what was meant went wrong. Stick to the regs

Passing over the RoW matter, from the point of view of the ship's officer, you would only have been assumed to be the stand-on vessel if you had been approaching from the ship's starboard bow, before you had been identified as a vessel under sail. Your speed might have been something to taken into account, but doesn't affect the regulations as far as I can see.

 

[geem]

But isn't the problem that lots of people don't understand them, or if they do think it will save effort to try a 'workaround'?

I've enjoyed it on the few occasions when I've heard Vessel 2's reply to Vessel 1's VHF call asking how Vessel 2 will pass them: 'In accordance with the Collision Regulations'.

Anyway a 'right of way' is something that allows you to pass over someone else's land. I think it's best, if possible, to use the same terminology as in the ColRegs, particularly when talking to people whose first language isn't English, or inexperienced sailors who find the ColRegs difficult enough without introducing language that could mean something subtly different from that intended.

Splitting hairs still. I was recounting a particular incident, not quoting college for the benefit of those that haven't read them or understand them

 

[jbweston]

Splitting hairs still. I was recounting a particular incident, not quoting college for the benefit of those that haven't read them or understand them

I wasn't criticising you, just suggesting that as far as possible when discussing and commenting on the ColRegs that we try to use the same language as they use rather paraphrasing or substituting our own terminology.

I'm not suggesting that you have to do that in informal conversation or when recounting anecdotes as you were (or ever, really, if you don't want to), only that my preference is to use the same terminology as the ColRegs if we can as it avoids confusion.

 

[laika]

Seaman's Guide to Rule of the Road. More in depth but easy stages of programmed learning.

I have a copy and I know it's a "classic" but it reads like something from an Edwardian rote learning classroom. What I found far better was just reading the actual rules in the appendix supplemented with testing via those flash cards you can buy

 

[Supertramp]

Passing over the RoW matter, from the point of view of the ship's officer, you would only have been assumed to be the stand-on vessel if you had been approaching from the ship's starboard bow, before you had been identified as a vessel under sail. Your speed might have been something to taken into account, but doesn't affect the regulations as far as I can see.

But relative speed does matter. I have encountered the Dublin ferries crossing the Irish Sea at 20-30knts whilst sailing at 3 knts. I would be unlikely to be able to move fast enough to have any effect from their point of view. In effect I am a vessel of limited manoeuvrability relative to them. They have always avoided me (so far...).

 

[requiem]

Passing over the RoW matter, from the point of view of the ship's officer, you would only have been assumed to be the stand-on vessel if you had been approaching from the ship's starboard bow, before you had been identified as a vessel under sail. Your speed might have been something to taken into account, but doesn't affect the regulations as far as I can see.

Of course, OP could alternatively have been engaged in mine clearance operations, fishing, or something else. At such a distance stand-on and give-way haven't yet come into play, so it's simply (or should be) cooperative planning.

 

[requiem]

In effect I am a vessel of limited manoeuvrability relative to them. They have always avoided me (so far...).

If we're going to call out the usage of RoW then certainly this should also be called out!

I've observed usage of "right of way" in a number of court opinions. The idea that it implies an absolute right seems a sort of amateur misconception akin to the same pedantry that claims there's no rope on a boat. But, avoiding the term avoids the misconception.

 

[Supertramp]

If we're going to call out the usage of RoW then certainly this should also be called out!

I've observed usage of "right of way" in a number of court opinions. The idea that it implies an absolute right seems a sort of amateur misconception akin to the same pedantry that claims there's no rope on a boat. But, avoiding the term avoids the misconception.

I dont think I would call for RoW versus a large vessel, even in open sea. I might ask for clarification of intentions. Most vessels with proper watchkeepers are monitoring other traffic and taking action where they judge necessary in line with the Colregs. Its the spirit and understanding of the Colregs that creates safety rather than a legal right.

Examples like Roberto's #19 with multiple vessels, or where one or both parties don't follow the Colregs, that get out of control leading to incidents and attempts to turn Colregs into legal rights (and wrongs) after an event.

 

[geem]

Passing over the RoW matter, from the point of view of the ship's officer, you would only have been assumed to be the stand-on vessel if you had been approaching from the ship's starboard bow, before you had been identified as a vessel under sail. Your speed might have been something to taken into account, but doesn't affect the regulations as far as I can see.

The point was that we declared we were a sailing vessel and they still wanted us to change course rather than going around our slow moving sailing vessel.
But comparison, in July we were sailing past the north coast of Anglesey, in the middle of the night. A tug was coming the other way and we had a similar discussion. Once he knew we were a sailing vessel, he altered course to go around us. This is what I would expect.
I have had many conversations with ship's at night when we were potentially on a collision course but never been asked to alter course, knowing we were a sailing vessel before. Then it happens twice!

 

[johnalison]

The point was that we declared we were a sailing vessel and they still wanted us to change course rather than going around our slow moving sailing vessel.
But comparison, in July we were sailing past the north coast of Anglesey, in the middle of the night. A tug was coming the other way and we had a similar discussion. Once he knew we were a sailing vessel, he altered course to go around us. This is what I would expect.
I have had many conversations with ship's at night when we were potentially on a collision course but never been asked to alter course, knowing we were a sailing vessel before. Then it happens twice!

Yes, I have no argument against the idea that a sailing boat being asked to change course in open water is at the least odd, though the manner in which the request is given may play a part.