Latest news from the RYA re. the dreaded 'e-borders'/police state legislation.

carlton

carlton

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Just in from the R.Y.A......

For those of you not in the know, this is a border control scheme aimed at electronically logging the movements of everyone entering and leaving the UK. This is an ambitious idea and has had many scratching their heads as to how such a scheme will be implemented.

This is a particularly piquant question for the recreational boater, who might head out of, say, Cherbourg with every intention of taking advantage of a westerly breeze to take him to Brighton, after informing the relevant authorities, he may then find the wind has switched, making, perhaps Fowey a better bet. That's the beauty of cruising: freedom, but it presents a considerable obstacle to the Government’s apparent wish to monitor and analyse all cross border movements.

EU Concerns
At the end of last year, the Home Affairs Select Committee’s report of its investigation into the e-Borders programme concluded that: 'The e-Borders programme is therefore, as far as we can ascertain, likely to be illegal under the EU Treaty'. This related to laws regarding freedom of movement throughout the EU, which makes sense when you bear in mind that at present EU members don't have to show a passport when crossing borders.

However, it transpires that the Government has in the mean time been negotiating with the European Commission and it emerged in December that the Government has provided a series of assurances to the European Union in an effort to ensure that the e-Borders programme will be consistent with EU law.

The European Commission has indicated that, in light of the clarifications, commitments and assurances given by the UK Government, it appears that the e-Borders programme would not be in breach of EU Directives relating to data protection and the freedom of movement of EU citizens.

Importantly, the UK Government has assured the EU that travellers who have not provided the UK authorities with relevant personal information will not be denied the right to travel, thereby ensuring that the whole scheme does not fall foul of EU rules on the free movement of people within the EU.

Major concession
Gus Lewis, Head of Government Affairs “It seems that, in satisfying the European Commission’s concerns over the free movement of EU citizens, the UK Government has had to make significant concessions that may undermine its aspiration to collect and analyse information on everyone who travels to or from the United Kingdom."

“However, the Government has still not published a comprehensive explanation of how the e-Borders scheme will in practice be rolled out in the recreational boating sector so it is not clear how the recent correspondence between the UK Government and the EU will affect the implementation of the e-Borders programme for recreational boaters.”

RYA Stance
At the same time as challenging the methodology of the e-Borders programme at a political level, the RYA has been meeting regularly with the UK Border Agency to ensure that they understand the complexities when it comes to recreational boaters.

However, although the technology platform is intended to be launched in 2011, the scheme is not expected to be fully implemented in the recreational sector until 2014 and the UKBA is at present heavily occupied with implementing the scheme in the commercial sector.

Gus explains: "The UK Government’s correspondence with the European Commission raises a number of questions as to how the e-Borders programme might be implemented in practice.

"For example, the assurances given by the Government refer to 'carriers' and 'passengers', clearly with commercial carriers in mind, and it is still not clear how the UK Government proposes to relate these definitions to owners, charterers, skippers or crew in the recreational sector."

With this in mind, the RYA will maintain a dialogue with the e-Borders team to ensure that the interests of recreational boaters are not compromised.
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Looks like it'll be heading our way soon... ('Papiere, bitte'...) :mad:
 
Importantly, the UK Government has assured the EU that travellers who have not provided the UK authorities with relevant personal information will not be denied the right to travel, thereby ensuring that the whole scheme does not fall foul of EU rules on the free movement of people within the EU.
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What the hell is it going to achieve then?

This sounds like HIPs (House sale scheme) all over again.
 
Job creation scheme for another layer of bureaucrats we can well do without and ill afford. Intrusive and unworkable. All the 'Sir Humphreys' must be rubbing their hands together with glee imagining the 'empires' they can create on the back of this. Does anyone know whether the Tories / Lib Dems have given an assurance to kill this piece of legislation if they are elected?
 
Adrianwool said:
Job creation scheme for another layer of bureaucrats we can well do without and ill afford. Intrusive and unworkable. All the 'Sir Humphreys' must be rubbing their hands together with glee imagining the 'empires' they can create on the back of this. Does anyone know whether the Tories / Lib Dems have given an assurance to kill this piece of legislation if they are elected?
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They can't.

The primary legislation has been in place for years.

The secondary legislation is controlled by civil servants.

This scam is entirely the work of the civil service who -- according to one (ex civil servant) poster in the lounge -- ran "effectively run the country" and regard it as part of their function to ensure that whatever Parliament may decide is ignored or overturned if the senior civil service thinks fit.
 
As stated in the article above,under European law, Europeans Don't need a passport to cross European borders, and as we are Europeans, in theory we don't have to show anything, other than proof that we are, who we say we are, in our case, our passport, because unlike most of Europe we don't have identity cards!!

I read something on this weeks ago, that the British authorities can ask other Europeans for information on who they are where and when they are traveling, but, (and you're going to love this bit) they don't have to tell them, it's up to the individual if he/she wants to give their personal details to the "inspector"

don't you just love it?:rolleyes:you couldn't make this **** up, it's like "Yes Minister" if you don't laugh at it, it'll make your blood boil.

Although the French will accept the new photo-type driving license as proof of identity, but that's only good for the drivers, non drivers have to use their bus pass perhaps?:D
 
I don't see a problem with them having a VISIBLE presence on the coastline, it's another form of intellengence gathering that Should not be of concern to the law-abiding citizen,BUT the manner in which they send over a boarding party is OBJECTIONABLE-Stormtroopers comes to mind. I understand this is done for operational reasons;i.e. if unsavoury characters were to try and get rid of illegal contraband. I have a BIG problem with this approach in that "Unidentified persons " approaching in a fast rib and attempting to board my vessel is akin to piracy on the sea-SEA PIRATES of Somalia come to mind with the Mothership awaiting just over the horizon.They are setting a Dangerous precident in that the criminal fraternity may adopt this as a modus operandi.:mad::mad:
 
timbartlett said:
They can't.

The primary legislation has been in place for years.

The secondary legislation is controlled by civil servants.

This scam is entirely the work of the civil service who -- according to one (ex civil servant) poster in the lounge -- ran "effectively run the country" and regard it as part of their function to ensure that whatever Parliament may decide is ignored or overturned if the senior civil service thinks fit.
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If I were in government and sone official told me I couldnt stop anything like this I'd simply remove all his funding - maybe thats why I'm not a politician.
 
Trivial regs that can't be enforced anyway! Sure we'll just ignore it like we've always ignored trivial regulations in the past.

Some folks go out of their way to get upset by irrelevant "proper" paper work. Stuff and nonsense, get on with it and enjoy your boating. ;) It doesn't matter one way or another.
 
oceanfroggie said:
Trivial regs that can't be enforced anyway! Sure we'll just ignore it like we've always ignored trivial regulations in the past.

Some folks go out of their way to get upset by irrelevant "proper" paper work. Stuff and nonsense, get on with it and enjoy your boating. ;) It doesn't matter one way or another.
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I can just see you laughing off a £2k fine or a year in gaol when some jobsworth decides to enforce the law that it is almost impossible to comply with. We already have people being fined for blowing their nose in stationary traffic, for not renewing the SORN on laid up vehicles that have not been near a road in years, for missing a tax deadline, etc etc. Don't think it won't happen, sooner or later some poor sap will get done. I just hope it isn't me.
 
OF; Pleasure boaters in Ireland are "Lucky" as of this moment in time NOT to have to deal with this from civil servants.Just imagine you decided to bring your friends for a short excursion across the irish sea to attend the Liverpool Boat Show in 2011 and whether the weather changed or you chose to go to another harbour to visit a friend,you could not keep to your Original planned passage/timetable.Now imagine some unknown civil servant who decides to make an example of you because you didnt keep to the Original plan of passage by maybe fining you £2k,maybe jailtime,or even impound the boat.Civil servants would be better off to excercise their energies into more productive areas such as NHS, Justice, Education, Job Creation, etc...Happy boating in 2010.:cool:
 
Firestone said:
OF; Pleasure boaters in Ireland are "Lucky" as of this moment in time NOT to have to deal with this from civil servants.Just imagine you decided to bring your friends for a short excursion across the irish sea to attend the Liverpool Boat Show in 2011 and whether the weather changed or you chose to go to another harbour to visit a friend,you could not keep to your Original planned passage/timetable.Now imagine some unknown civil servant who decides to make an example of you because you didnt keep to the Original plan of passage by maybe fining you £2k,maybe jailtime,or even impound the boat.Civil servants would be better off to excercise their energies into more productive areas such as NHS, Justice, Education, Job Creation, etc...Happy boating in 2010.:cool:
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Hi Firestone. We have an unusual one here, the Shannon-Erne waterway crosses the border between ROI and NI/UK every couple of miles and has dense leisure traffic during summer months. It's a joke, unworkeable, and won't stand up, but there's plenty here quite ready to spend a few bob dismasting it in EU court. It will fall at the first legal fence in EU courts.
 
OF; I hope you are right re; this will fall at the first LEGAL fence in an EU court.I LOVE my time boating and am passionate about all things boaty,ie why, when I hear this Drivel coming from civil servants , it makes concerned enough to comment on it,because To Do Nothing is WRONG!!!:cool:
 
Firestone said:
OF; I hope you are right re; this will fall at the first LEGAL fence in an EU court.I LOVE my time boating and am passionate about all things boaty,ie why, when I hear this Drivel coming from civil servants , it makes concerned enough to comment on it,because To Do Nothing is WRONG!!!:cool:
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Or as Edmund Burke said

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'.
 
Forgive me for being thick but does the concession to allow you to travel anyway not just make it voluntary, hence we can all ignore it and there is nothing they can do about it?
 
ian38_39 said:
Forgive me for being thick but does the concession to allow you to travel anyway not just make it voluntary, hence we can all ignore it and there is nothing they can do about it?
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That was how the UKBA described it to me at Excel, as recorded here:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225053

In that post I was critical of the RYA for putting out a poorly worded press release that puffed their own part in the discussions and failed to make clear the significance of the concession that has been made. Their latest update (which is the subject of this thread) is better, but the fact that you are having to ask this question tells me not that you are thick but that the RYA have still failed to make the key point with sufficient clarity.
 
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