Lagos Portugal year-round berthing

[richardsussex]

Hi Folks (my first proper post!)

Currently scheduled to go to Sant Carles Marina in Spain summer 2012. However, as you may have heard the Spanish have just made law (22 DEC 11) a new rule that owners of boats over 11m will be treated like house-owners in Spain. This means that if you spend more than 6 months a year in Spain or Spanish territorial waters you must take on liabilities for Spanish income tax etc. There's a whole lot more but it is quite complex and the info is around elsewhere but basically it is not good news.

Well, I don't feel too good about paying for a marina berth 12 months a year if I can only be on the boat in Spain for 6 months. (and that means 6 months per year, not just periods in excess of 180 days or whatever).

So, I am thinking of going back to plan A, which was Lagos. My understanding is that (broadly) in Portugal you can spend as much time as you want on your boat although not in excess of 180 days at a time. The workaround seems to be to exit the country with documented absence for a few days at the right time in the Tax Year.

So, my questions are:

1. Does anyone know if Lagos are offering discounts for 12-month rentals?

2. Lagos Band IIIa on the tariff is max 11.99m length and beam max 4.0. "Area" - length x beam is 47.96. My boat is Length 12.53m, beam 3.89m, "Area" being 48.74, ie some 1.6% over the rate card.

Many marinas allow a small margin on the stated dimensions, eg 5%, 10%.

Has anyone any experience of Lagos Marina allowing such a margin?

As has been pointed out on this site, marinas are inclined to show some flexibility in the current climate.

My SSR states the correct measurements. With 20:20 hindsight maybe I should have been a bit economical with the truth when I applied for the SSR.

3. Are there any similar legal nasties brewing for Portugal, as per above for Spain?

Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks

 

[PlanB]

I'm not sure your info about Spain is quite right - see here (in English):
http://www.nauticalegal.com/en/reports/116-cambios-en-el-impuesto-de-matriculacion-para-el-2011

 

[syfuga]

Lagos and Spain

Firstly, there are issues regarding Spain, and if you join the Cruising Association, there has been a recent posting on the subject from the HLR in Rapita, Majorca which goes into all the issues (including needing to register the boat in Spain, observe Spanish regs and qualify as a skipper).

Secondly, we are here in Lagos for 6 months. The marina was not flexible over e-mail at all: they might be if you could speak to the manager face to face without having committed. It is very empty compared with 2004/5 when we could hardly get a space, but I have not heard of any concessions.

The rate card goes all the way, so assume like us you will be in band IV. Bear in mind that Lagos do not separately charge for electricity and water, nor WIFI. It is more expensive, but much the best marina, town in the Algarve.

You will find a lot of information regarding taxes etc. on www.lagosnavigators.net

PM me or find us on www.syfuga.co.uk

 

[david36]

I think that your analysis of the tax position for Portugal is a bit off the mark. There are two issues to deal with; one, you as an individual and the taxes you pay, including income tax, social security, capital gains tax etc etc; two, the taxes on the boat and the regulations regarding registration, crew certification, on-board kit etc. The Lagos Navigators site is a good place to start research but you should consider appropriate professional advice if there is a lot at stake.
Regarding the marina fees at Lagos, I believe that for your size of boat they stick to the letter of their published prices and benefits - even if that means lost sales! I understand that a few years ago, very large "gin-palaces" were sometimes able to obtain a minor discount outside high season but that seems to be a thing of the past. They only take into account length and beam for monohulls and use the registration document to obtain them.
The financial position of Portugal as a State is dire and getting worse. The likelihood is that tax regulation and offical charges will tighten over the coming years to squeeze more from the golden goose - especially "rich foreigners" such as yachties. So beware.
Having said all that, Lagos is a great town and an excellent marina even if , like so many places, it gets crowded, noisy and hot in July and August.
Fair winds.

 

[jtarmey]

Nasties in Portugal

We are currently berthed in Vilamoura and have been there since September. Don't live
aboard as have apartment nearby which we visit approx 4 mths per year. Have fiscal representative who pays our property tax etc. Went for a spin in our Nordwest 42 10 days ago. Came home to phone call from fiscal rep saying tax authorities want to see a T2L document for boat as proof of our community status, also VAT certificate and invoice.

Never heard of T2L, had all other documents plus Small Ships Register. Looked online and T2L is for moving freight round EU. We sailed boat to Portugal via France and Spain so not appropriate to have T2L.

Spoke to HMRC who say not correct form for pleasure yachts and Portugal only member state requesting it.

Contacted tax authorities in Portugal who at present are indicating failure to produce T2L will mean we have to pay VAT in Portugal.

Contacted RYA who say already one court case in Portugal re this where boat owners lost and had to pay 20,000 euros, another case pending.

Have made contact with HMRC Central Processing Unit in Salford where very helpful official is prepared to issue T2L to get us off hook even though not appropriate. There are plans to take matter up in Brussels.

Would be very interested to hear from anyone with same problems to discuss.

Be warned!

 

[GrahamM376]

I think that your analysis of the tax position for Portugal is a bit off the mark. There are two issues to deal with; one, you as an individual and the taxes you pay, including income tax, social security, capital gains tax etc etc; two, the taxes on the boat and the regulations regarding registration, crew certification, on-board kit etc. The Lagos Navigators site is a good place to start research but you should consider appropriate professional advice if there is a lot at stake.

Portugal is very lax compared with Spain. I have Portuguese residence (my wife is dual nationality, UK & Portuguese), we've had the boat here for 6 years now. Neither of us has ever had to file a tax return or pay social security.

As far as the boat is concerned, we have never paid light dues or cruising tax, avoiding the latter by visiting Spain each summer. Never been asked for qualifications, just the usual SSR, insurance and passports. From time to time the Policia Maritima have a purge and threaten fines to anyone not meeting their safety equipment standards for Ocean category but, to date I haven't met anyone UK registered who was actually fined.

 

[JamesFrance]

Hi Folks (my first proper post!)

Currently scheduled to go to Sant Carles Marina in Spain summer 2012. However, as you may have heard the Spanish have just made law (22 DEC 11) a new rule that owners of boats over 11m will be treated like house-owners in Spain.

Do you have a reference for this new law? It doesn't seem to be anything new as you would usually be resident for tax purposes when living in an EU country.

Portugal is unlikely to be any different, though people on boats have been getting away with this sort of thing for years in both places.

 

[richardsussex]

Do you have a reference for this new law? It doesn't seem to be anything new as you would usually be resident for tax purposes when living in an EU country.

Portugal is unlikely to be any different, though people on boats have been getting away with this sort of thing for years in both places.

James, don't have a reference - I am going on the advice note being sent out by the Cruising Association, of which I am a member.

As some other respondents have pointed out, I haven't phrased my original post very accurately. The tax liability is probably similar to what has happened historically and in other countries. What worries me more is the requirement to re-register the boat in Spain and have all the boat's certification (and maybe your own sailing certificates as well) if you are classed as living in Spain.

I think I will stick to Spain and keep to 183 days max per year in Spain/Spanish waters and generally keep out of trouble.

Anyway, I am very grateful to all of you for your helpful and constuctive comments. Thank you.

Hope you a have a good sailing season in 2012

 

[JamesFrance]

Richard you may want to read this:
http://www.nauticalegal.com/en/repo...-de-matriculacion-a-embarcaciones-extranjeras

No need to re-register for the last year.

If you decide to come to Sant Carles you may like to join our forum:
http://www.scmchat.com/scm2/index.php

 

[PlanB]

The law I linked to in an earlier post confirmed that, even if you have to pay matriculation tax in Spain, you no longer have to re-register your boat and consequently do the Spanish qualifications.