Kicker question, fiddle block loose fitted sail

[colhel]

I have a kicker strap controlled by a Fiddle Block with a cam, probem being, when the kicker gets taught I can't release it. The block is attached to the foot of the mast. I guess I'm better off using a fixed cam cleat, but could it be the set up of the fiddle block that's wrong?
Also, with a loose fitted Main, does a Kicker make much difference to how the sails are set?
Boat is Leisure 23SL.
The only pic I can find is this one, it doesn't show the block but might give an idea of the set up.
Thank You!

 

[Stemar]

I can't help with your problem of getting the kicker to let go, except to wonder if everything's a bit undersized, which could make release more difficult. However, I have a loose footed main on my 24 footer and I still need the kicker off the wind to keep the boom from lifting and spilling all the wind from the sail.

 

[RobbieH]

I have a kicker strap controlled by a Fiddle Block with a cam, probem being, when the kicker gets taught I can't release it. The block is attached to the foot of the mast. I guess I'm better off using a fixed cam cleat, but could it be the set up of the fiddle block that's wrong?
Also, with a loose fitted Main, does a Kicker make much difference to how the sails are set?
Boat is Leisure 23SL.
The only pic I can find is this one, it doesn't show the block but might give an idea of the set up.
Thank You!

I had the same setup and got very fed up with going on deck every time I wanted to slack the kicker. I took off the camcleat and ran the kicker back to the cockpit via aturning block at the mast foot and an organiser. Mind you it was part of a general deck gear upgrade - not sure if I would have bothered just for the kicker.

On my fiddle block it wouldn't have been possible to mount the cam cleat so it could be engaged and disengaged from the cockpit. Especially with a sprayhood in the way

 

[penfold]

Looks like you don't have enough purchase on it which will make adjusting under load difficult. Your kicker is an important trimming/depowering tool and you should consider running it back to the cockpit for ease of use and safety in inclement weather. The loose foot makes no difference to the use of the kicker.

 

[colhel]

Thanks all, I see there's a kicker discussion going on on the PBO forum.... This is our first proper sailing boat and I've been inclined to keep the set up as per previous owner, now we're into out 3rd season I guess it's time to set it up how I want.

The purchase on the present set up is only 2:1 so does take a lot of effort to make a difference, so 4:1 i think would be a big imrovement. I've got a spare cam cleat which I can each from the cockpit, but wouldn't releasing it still be a problem? Also from reading the other thread, how would I stop it tightening up if the mainsheet is released and could the tightening cause damage?

 

[penfold]

The higher the purchase, the easier it will be to release from its cleat; 4:1 is ok, but I would advocate 5:1 or even 6:1; you'll be grateful for the ease of adjustment long after you've forgotten the extra cost of triple blocks. If the kicker is attached at the mastfoot letting the boom out will not alter the tension significantly; the gooseneck and kicker anchorpoint should be in alignment vertically.

 

[boguing]

Don't forget that you can use the mainsheets' larger ratio to hoik the boom down, and then just take the slack out of the kicker.

Sailing upwind, the kicker does nothing, except in light airs. It's only there to control twist when the mainsheet can't. (Because it is pulling the boom more sideways than up/down).

 

[PhillM]

Colin, just fixed a similar problem with my kicker. It was very under-rated and too close to the mast to do the job properly. We were also changing the mainsheet arrangement and wanted to be sure that we had enough purchase on the kicker.

First we moved the boom position and then we changed the purchase so that we had a 2:1 that leads down to a 4:1. This made it easier to put tension on, but it would not release well. I can take a pic next time I'm at the boat.

We then changed the rope and that did the trick. Its hard to describe the properties of the original rope except it felt hard to touch and did not coil as easily as I would have expected. Changing it for one that felt softer and coiled well did the trick.

We have a local rigger who helped me with this mini-project. I dont know if he covers Poole but if you want I can PM you his details. He helped me to rig the kicker using old spare rope so I could test it, then when we had the setup right he spliced it all up nice and professionally so it both works and looks nice!

 

[Salty John]

Kicking straps or boom vangs are notoriously inefficient because half of the effort you put into tensioning them goes on trying to drive the boom forward into the mast.
If the distance from the connection point on the boom is further aft than the distance down to the mast foot, so the angle of the vang flattens out, putting even more of your effort into dragging the boom forward and less into pulling the boom down.
So, be careful piling on the mechanical advantage if you have concerns about the integrity of your gooseneck connection.
On a long run I always unclipped the vang at the mast and moved it to a strongpoint on the toerail under the boom - this means the vang is pulling straight down and most of the effort is going into pulling the boom down. It also acts as a preventer.
Some boats have the vang running down to a car on a curved track under the boom so the vang always pulls down - a very sensible arrangement but rarely seen now.

Having a cam cleat on a fiddle block on the vang has never really worked for me - trying to flick the tail out of the cam from the cockpit never seemed to work - better to take the tail back to a cleat near the cockpit.

 

[colhel]

Everyone who's answered seems to understand the problem, so thanks for that. Releasing the vang with the fiddle block doesn't seem to work as no matter how I try I can't get the angle to pull the tail out of the cleat, I'd like it to work as it wouldn't need the spare cleat near the cockpit, as I've got another use for it.
Salty John, the main on a Leisure 23 isn't very big as most of the work is done with a large Genoa (see pic) and there isn't a lot of spare room on the coachroof, so I'd either have to run the tail back to the cockpit, or get the present arrangement working more efficiently
Phil, can you flick the tail out easily with your arrangement? On ours it tightens up and you can't pull it enough to release the cams, and when you pull at an angle away from the cams, the cams stay in line with the tail. If that makes sense.

 

[penfold]

Phil, can you flick the tail out easily with your arrangement? On ours it tightens up and you can't pull it enough to release the cams, and when you pull at an angle away from the cams, the cams stay in line with the tail. If that makes sense.

This usually means either the cam cleat is knackered, the rope size is undersized for the cleat or there's too much load on it(they are rated when you buy them, although few pay much attention to that figure as matching the rope thickness is more important.).

 

[PhillM]

The original kicker had a clam cleat attached to the block and that did not work well at all. We have now run back to the cockpit and through a spare jammer that was aleady on the coach roof and now its eases OK.

 

[fireball]

The purchase on the present set up is only 2:1 so does take a lot of effort to make a difference, so 4:1 i think would be a big imrovement.

Our RS400 has a 16:1 purchase ...

I know it's a different kettle of fish cos we're racing and you're probably not - but I can't see why you'd want to have less of a purchase on your kicker than a smallish dinghy!

16:1 is fairly easy to achieve - just cascade 4 blocks and you're all done...

Actually, thinking about it - the slight downside will be the ability to scandalise the main ... so it might be best to do a 4:1 via cascade then put a 2:1 or 4:1 on the end ...

 

[snowleopard]

Even the most basic dinghy would find 2:1 inadequate. The fact that the cam moves as you try to release is probably down to the fact that the sideways pull is almost as great as the tension in the tackle. With a 4:1 or better tackle the tension in the tackle won't allow the block to move and the sideways pull will release the rope easily. I use 3x and 4x tackles with fiddle blocks and cam jammers on my dinghy davits and they work perfectly.

OTOH, working from a distance away in the cockpit it might be difficult to get sufficient change of angle so you'd probably be best off bringing the line back to a jammer or clutch close to the cockpit.