Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21'ers

Judders

Judders

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Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

I am fed up with my kicking strap and outhaul arrangement son my foxcub and want to make a new one. What arrangements do people recomend?

KickingStrapII.jpg


As you can see, the kicker works by way of one small block on the mast and a locking block on the way back. It simply does not hold the tension and the outhaul is worse.
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

I agree the kicker is crap. But the main is so small all you have to do is pull down on the end of the boom and lock off the kicker.

I replaced my outhaul with this, which must work as Twister Ken kept saying I had too much outhaul on.

Clewouthaul02.jpg
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

I would go for a 6:1 for a boat that size. Harken, or Barton both do locking block arrangements. You probably wouldn't need to on a 21 but you could double the purchase by putting another block in the equation. I can send you a photo if you want. (Can't do the link thingy)
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

Hello Phil thats a lovely picture but i reckon you didn't need the pulley at the clew as the cringle of the sail is smooth enough to work as a pulley.
I am rather keen on the idea of cutting the boom as short as possible to reduce the chance of having my head hit by the boom.
Secondly I realise you have a small main sail but I found with a larger main that the reliance on the bolt rope in the boom track was not good as you have all the load of the main sheet trying to pull the bolt rope out. Still it is apparently good for you.

My out haul consists of a 3 part purchase inside the boom to a 7x19 wire around the sheave at the end of the boom to the clew. The clew is bolted to a slider in a bit of SS track on top of the boom. The tail of the 3 purchase goes via pulleys down to the deck to a winch for applying tension. Overkill maybe but the friction holds the line after tensioning up on the winch so it can be moved to a cleat but on the other hand it is not so free to move back on releasing tension.

As for kicker the problem is that with little room between the cabin top and the boom you have little chance of getting any real power in the downward direction.
The system in the photo should be turned up side down so the tail rope for adjustment comes out at deck level where it can be led back to the winch or a cleat. Kickers tend to work well with a 2 part purchase of wire with a 2 or more purchase rope ulling on the wire. But even then it really is only used to prevent the boom rising rather than put real down tension on the boom.

Anyway again I acknowledge that my 21fter has a pretty big main so maybe on a small mast head rig it doesn't matter so much.

I certainly believe in fiddling and changing things around to suit.
Don't ever tell me the designer knows best. olewill
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

The outhaul was mine, not Judders. I did it like that because it was set up as you suggest and was immovable. I used the block because I had it, and it worked very well indeed.
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

A cascade on a 21 footer? Seems a bit OTT!
Biggest problem with that kicker setup is that the hardware's cheap. Change the blocks for decent stuff and rig a 4:1 or 6:1 (depending on if you go to the gym) with a simple cam cleat. No need to pay for the Harken kit, which is very expensive, the Barton stuff is good quality for much less money! Also change the rope to fit the blocks.
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

[ QUOTE ]
As for kicker the problem is that with little room between the cabin top and the boom you have little chance of getting any real power in the downward direction.


[/ QUOTE ]

In that case you could use a the arrangement you have, but use a lower fitting with a cam cleat instead of a V cleat.

Harken_Kicker.JPG


This means when you pull from the usual angle it will cleat for you.

The above picture is what the top Topper sailors now use - but would be fine to replace what you have. Total set-up is around £60.

Jonny
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

High JohnyH the point about not being able to get much power in a kicker is that the space between the boom and mast foot is small compared to the length of the boom.
That means that regardless of the power in the kicker tackle you end up pulling on a point on the boom which is very close to the gooseneck which mostly tries to pull the gooseneck down or...
If you move the kicker attach out the boom because of the angle you end up trying to squash the gooseneck by pulling the boom forward more than down.
So essentialy no amount of mechanical advantage on the tacklle will be able to pull the sail into shape compared to the stress on the gooseneck.

The answer.... go to a wide main sheet traveller and pull the boom down with the mainsheet. olewill
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

[ QUOTE ]
The answer.... go to a wide main sheet traveller and pull the boom down with the mainsheet

[/ QUOTE ] I agree that a longer main sheet track will enable you to improve the sail shape control while close hauled (traveller up in light winds and down in strong winds) A traveller at the front of the cockpit makes it even better but is a pain in other respects. However you need a decent kicker when off the wind especially when running to prevent sail twist.

I have a 4 fold purchase on a 19footer, I guess a six fold would be better but my boom is so low that it is difficult to get much effective downward pull on it.

The optimum angle for the kicker is when it is at 45 degrees. Move it out along the boom and you just put more effort into shoving the gooseneck into the mast, move it closer to the mast and you loose all the leverage.
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

If you are (say) broad reaching, and you are going to be on one tack for a while, you could use the kicker as a vang (or are they exactly the same?) and clip the bottom end onto eg the toerail, or a strop on a midships spring cleat, or any other strong point in approximately the right location.
And then you can vang it pretty much vertically downwards, which would be very efficient.
You do have to remember to release it before you tack though!
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

[ QUOTE ]
or are they exactly the same

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. Kicker is short for kicking strap. Vang or boom vang is the term used in the US and increasingly in the UK
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

6:1 on the kicker isn't enough if you want to adjust the thing easily.

My Merlin-Rocket had 32:1 and even the Enterprise had 16:1. On a small boat the kicker is just like a hand throttle.
 
Re: Kicker arrangement & outhaul- sub 21\'ers

[ QUOTE ]
6:1 on the kicker isn't enough if you want to adjust the thing easily.

My Merlin-Rocket had 32:1 and even the Enterprise had 16:1. On a small boat the kicker is just like a hand throttle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Difference is on a dinghy you're doing everything at once, on a small cruising boat (as I assume this is) you do one task at a time.
Also the kicker on a dinghy is not only flattening the sail, but also bending the mast. It's not doing this on a small yacht.
Every sub 27 foot yacht I've sailed (including the likes of J80s) has had a max of a 6:1, and that's been more than enough.
 
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