Kevlar versus carbon sails

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paulburn

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I want to buy a new main/jib for my trimaran (F28r), mainly for fast cruising/occasional racing.

I understand carbon is probably a better material out of the box, can be brittle and kevlar is susceptible to UV damage, but my question is, which material is cheaper in the long run. I assume carbon is more expensive to buy, but if it lasts proportionally longer then it might work out cheaper over 10-15 years in replacement costs.

wold be grateful for advice !

Paul
 
It has been a long time since I spoke to a sailmaker about this, so you might want to take what I say with a grain of salt.

I would only buy carbon for racing, and expect to replace it fairly regularly. I would not buy carbon for coastal cruising and occasional racing.

I might consider kevlar for what you want to do - particularly given that you have a high-performance boat. It will hold its shape well until it fails, possibly spectacularly.

I think you might also want to consider Spectra. I understand that is (was) the low-stretch material of choice for world cruisers, because it is not as affected by UV as kevlar, and has similar low-stretch properties.

Have you already spoken to several sailmakers? I'd suggest you speak to sailmakers of top racing sails, who will also know about performance cruising, and what will be right for your application. All the usual suspects for this kind of thing - North, Quantum, UK. I'm sure flaming will be along shortly to make some other suggestions and correct any of my mistakes!
 
For a trimaran, it is probably best to stick to a sailmaker who specialises, as the higher speeds probably affect the amount of twist and you want in the sail.
10-15 years sounds optimistic for a laminated sail in my limited experience.
 
My FINN used Kevlar Main .. It was a sandwich .. Mylar .. Kevlar .. Mylar .. Very crisp and held its shape well .. They are not made to adjust that much so you have to make sure you get it all sorted with correct mast bend etc before it is made .. They also damage easily .. Need to be stored away from the sun .. Rolled when not in use as they will start to delaminate if you get to many creases in them .. Expensive .. FINN sail last time I bought one was £780 .. Bought one from North Sails in New Zealand that was about £600 and was a very nice sail .. Used mine for dingy racing but all the same things apply .. Talk to a sailmaker but if they get it wrong you will be going backwards .. Do the manufacturers use any particular sailmaker .. If so start there .. They certainly dont last as long as Dacron Sails ..
 
In my understanding Kevlar is cheaper both out of the box and over time.
People always talk about a string sail being "perfect" right up to the moment it goes bang, but that's not been my experience.
The shape holding is very good, but it's not the strings that fail, it's the filament in between, and you end up trying to sail with a high tech fishing net! For that reason I would expect carbon and Kevlar sails to have very similar lifespan, but the carbon sails to be a bit more expensive.

I would also say that the difference between carbon and kevlar is very minimal, especially for anything other than top end racing.

I have noticed a lot of carbon on racing multis in the solent though, so maybe the equation changes with a multi? My advice would be to find a sailmaker who has made a lot of sails for the F28 and get their opinion. Sailmakers are in the business of trying to supply your sails over a number of years, so they tend to give good honest advice and I've yet to meet one that doesn't like talking about sails!
 
Its "horses for courses". A pure racing sail is going to be expensive and is only really designed and manufactured to last a few seasons. We had a set of North 3DLs previously which completely fell apart after two seasons use. We bought a Pentex main and Genoa from Sobstad a couple of years ago and have been very pleased with the service and products. We went for a single tafeta coating which increased the weight but greatly improved durability. Paul Hooker was very good at helping us decide which was the best sail for our needs which is 50/50 racing cruising. Their details below.

Paul Hooker
Elvstrom Sobstad
HYS, Port Hamble Marina, Hamble, Southampton SO31 4NN
Tel: +44 (0)23 8045 6205
DDI: +44 (0)23 8060 4386
Fax: +44 (0)23 8045 2465
Mob: +44 (0)7876 652525
Email: paul@elvstromsobstad.co.uk
Skype: pjhooker
Web: www.elvstromsobstad.co.uk
 
For Dragonfly trimarans, which are similar performance to your boat, a popular choice manufacturer of sails is UK Halsey McWilliams. They have experience in trimaran sails. Their Tape Drive Gold sails are suitable, but not cheap. They are Mylay/Kevlar/Mylar sandwich, and will last 8-10 years if looked after. Sunlight is a killer. A thick sailcover is a good investment.

When they fail, it is sudden, dramatic, and often irreparable.

flyflyspin.jpg
 
If you are mostly cruising then I would go for a taffeta covered Pentex, Carbon and Kevlar are great on the big-bucks race course but a bit OTT for what you want in my opinion. I would suggest you have a chat with Ian Brown at Quantum (Hamble), he is very helpful and knowledgeable.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Carbon and Kevlar are great on the big-bucks race course

[/ QUOTE ]

and trimarans! Most modern high performance tris will have carbon, kevlar or similar sails, even for cruising. Putting a cheap sail on a trimaran is about as useful as putting a carbon sail on a Centaur. Of course, there are many sailors happy plodding along with baggy old cross cut Dacron sails, but if paulburn was one of those, he would be unlikely to have a F28R. There's only one reason put up with all the downsides of sailing a tri - that's high sailing speed. And the F28R is a seriously quick boat!
 
Elvstrom Sobstad have recognised trimaran sail making expertise amongst the UK Dragonfly community, so I would agree that they are also a good company to contact for advice in addition to UK McWilliams that I mentioned above.
 
THankyou for all your advice, clearly a lot of choice in manufacturers and materials and difficult to get a consensus. I think Angus is completely correct - there are indeed many disadvantages of multis - but hopefully all outweighted by the speed/grin factor and good sails are necessary even for cruising to cope with the loads etc
Regards paul
 
What was the cause of the problem with Dee Caffari's sails in the Vendee Globe? Does anyone know? It looked like she'd repaired them with a fishing net by time she finished.
 
Twas a North laminate sail but not sure which flavour, North are not the normal suppliers to the Vendee boats and they seem to have a problem with the conditions and it being non stop..... mind you it is 30,000+ miles which is quite a bit of cruising /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
As I understand, it was a problem with the glue.

All of the Volvo boats are using North, and a couple of them had the start of the same problem. But most didn't, so it looks like it was just a bad batch.

Not that Dee would have been overly reassured by that....
 
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