keel bolts/rust runs

[Karlhorrex]

Hi,the boat I want to buy has uniformly spaced rust runs down both sides of the keel from where it joins the hull. Could the hull have shrunk while out of the water letting water in/out or is it a sign of somehting worse? (Hope not as I've fallen in love!) Would it be hard/ expensive to rectify? She is 30'
Thanks,
karl

 

[Peterduck]

The rust streaks are a pretty certain sign that the steel keelbolts are desperately in need of attention. As steel expands to about 8 times its original volume when it rusts, you can expect that they will be tight in the wood keel. Having removed the keelbolt nuts, you will need to jack the boat up clear of the ground and then separate the ballast keel from the wood keel with wedges. This will sorely try your patience. Alternatively, the bolts may be so rusted that they part in the middle and the ballast comes away easily. The implications of that are frightening. I would not recommend trying to drive the bolts out from above, as they may be corroded down to a narrow "neck". The bolt will fracture at this point and the two ends overlap and jam up solid. Let us know how you get on.
Peter.

 

[tillergirl]

Well far be it from me to disagree with the experience of Peterduck but I did my keel bolts last year and it wasn't too difficult - and I didn't need to separate the ballast keel being able to drive out all but one from the top.

I do however agree that the rust streaks indicate you need to renew them.

First things first, I assume you've checked that they are bolts and not studs into the keel. If they are studs you have no option to do what Peterduck says - and you will need patience. However, if you can see bolt heads underneath the keel, you've got bolts. You might be lucky like I was and have hex nuts underneath as well. Lucky I say because whilst nuts underneath is probably not as good as a proper head, we were able to get a large socket and arm to give a couple of tough ones a bit of a turn to break the grip.

Assuming you have bolts, I would lightly scratch mark nut and stud inside so that when you get the nut to turn, you can immediately check that the bolt has remained stationary. If the marks remain constant and there is no movement of the bolt underneath, you are twisting the top part of the bolt off the bottom part and you are into Peterduck's narrow neck situation. You probably have no choice but to carry on and like me in one case you may be lucky that further turning releases the nut. In my case that happened with a 1" bolt that had 'necked' down to about half. Even with that reduction, I was able to drive out the bolt from the top. But a good strong drift, that is a snug fit is essential and you need to monitor what is happening very frequently. With one bolt, the top part had already separated and looking down the hole we could see the remains of the bolt that looked like a stalagmite. Following conventional wisdom, a drift was made with a hole to fit over the remaining spike of the bolt. When tried this didn't work well as with only a few taps we could see distortion in the top of the spike - and we were very lucky to be able to see it. At this point we were lucky. The socket and arm underneath turned the whole bolt. Turning it clockwise - yes doing it up, the bolt slowly reversed out of the hole! I can't explain it but it worked. The remaining 8 bolts were driven out relatively easily. Generally two good blows with a large sledge hammer started the bolt and then a very large Club hammer did the rest.

But Peter's comment about fracturing the bolt is very valid and you need to monitor what is happening all the time. So I think this means someone underneath watching while you wallop it from up top. The moment you get movement at the top, even very small without the same underneath, you have got the neck collapsing.

Tell us more about the boat. How deep is the keel.

Yes, this is something to plan carefully but people and boats have survived it.

 

[Karlhorrex]

Hi, thanks very much for the replies! The keel is 5', boat mahogany on oak.

 

[Mirelle]

There's some jolly good advice here.

The rust runs tell you several things at once:

1. The keelbolts are slack, otherwise no liquid would be getting past them.

Therefore, they need to be renewed, because they are wasted. Wood keels seldom shrink; they are the wettest part of the structure, ashore or afloat. But you can be quite sure that the bolts won't be slack enough to come out readily!

2. Water is getting into the boat.

Probably rain water, through the deck, cockpit, etc., and it has probably been doing it for some time.

I think you should moderate your views of how much you feel like paying, quite considerably, and call in a good surveyor.

Like Tillergirl, I've always been lucky with keel bolts. I renew them every 10 years, after an "interesting experience" replacing them, soon after I bought the boat.

 

[Karlhorrex]

Thanks again for the replies. The boat is £6000 and I realise a lot more must be spent. Water has got in, part of coach roof needs replacing. The survey from last year was not bad, good condition for age,1968, and most of the work has been done. Would it be terminal if the bolts were to do their worst (as I'm expecting), or just(?!) expensive and time consuming?
Karl.

 

[Kristal]

Decadence

Whilst always having inwardly nodded to myself at Mirelle's laudable practise of replacing keelbolts every ten years, I'm suddenly realising how little time it is until Crystal's decade is up. Therefore, I am now keeping a printed file of CB Forum replies (this post and the one about antifoul constitute the first) for future reference.

People always say you must take care with hearsay advice - as an old car enthusiast, I'm very aware of the "bloke down the pub" problem - but here you get quite the opposite: a selection of opinions and a great deal of knowledge, always backed up with examples of practical experience, most of which spans many years, and all with floating demonstrations of the owner's authority.

If anybody needs any advice on which enormous mistakes to avoid when renewing topsides, just let me know - I've just made practically all of them...

/<

 

[tillergirl]

Would it be terminal or just (?!) expensive? Ah yes, that's a good question. I suppose the theoretical answer is that if you can't drive the bolts out you take or cut off the nuts and then do what Peter suggested - drop the keel. I've not done that but have seen it done on a Folkboat. The yard used wedges and time! But it came apart and did all go back. I think I would say that dropping the keel is about the biggest DIY job I can think of. I am particularly thinking about the size of tool we used on TG - a big sledge and a huge Stilson etc. So in that sense it's not terminal.

One point just to make the detective work a little more difficult. I found that the condition of the nut inside was inverse to the condition of the bolt. I.E. The worst bolt had a nut in good condition and the worst nut was on an ok bolt. It might also be, of course, that someone has replaced some or all of the nuts.

You've obviously got a good negotiating point here for the purchase price. Just how bad are the rust streaks? It sounds like at every bolt? Remember in your price haggling that the engine is going to have to come out to do the one or two beneath there.

Do let us know what you decide to do.

 

[Mirelle]

Oh, just expensive and time consuming.

After seeing the resurrection of the PIONEER, I now know that nothing, not even disappearing beneath the mud of a final resting place, is ever "terminal" - I suspect that the Brian Kennell and the rest of the Pioneer Trust would calmly get the MARY ROSE sailing again and call it a "fairly extensive refit"!

Seriously, this is just expensive and time consuming (and incredibly frustrating) stuff. It can be faced.

Need a good surveyor, not just to look at the boat, but to stay involved and advise on the refit.

 

[cliffordpope]

I agree about stubborn keelbolts being potentially the most difficult job there is.
My 21 foot gaff cutter dates from the 1880s, and when I set about restoration 10 years ago the bolts were clearly the originals.
They all concertinered, and I had to jack up the hull and cut the bolts having driven in wedges. That was the easy bit.
The sawn-off remains refused to budge from either direction, so I had to remove every floor in turn, sawing all the rusted iron securing nails. I could then again hacksaw through the remaining bolt at the join between the floor and the bottom of the bilge. Every remaining section of bolt had to be drilled/driven free. Two floors split in the process.
Then I had problems extracting the stubs from the iron keel itself. Again, they refused to drive, but had to be drilled out.
The entire job took about 2 years, doing a few hours each evening working in a confined space holding half a hacksaw blade in a cloth pad.
Then I had to remake new floors, extract the rusted remains of the old nails from the planking, and drill new bolt holes in line with the holes in the iron keel.
Any sane person would have built a replica and put a torch to the original boat!