Jenneau Bav bens

[Mr Cassandra]

I have read many posting knocking these boats .Why. My Jenneau 1990, Sun Magic 44 has a 2.2mts deep keel, and weigh in ,non loaded at 10.500kg If I push her [ Or is It IT] I can get 12-13kt when surfing .We have been out in many a good blow in excess of 35-55kts wind .it is as good ,if not better than the Sigma 38 I had .And I have been on many ,up market boats double the price [ Mine was with teak deck £118,000 ten years ago.] that did not have the same Quallity finish ,or equipment as standard ! [Having read the last statment the price of the new ones have come down] Come on Honest replies please Cheers bob t

Bob T

 

[Ohdrat]

I have trad hull (long narrow and deep) tendancies but have sailed Jeanneaus and rate them v high.. Excellent sea keeping and well laid out below... much better than the Westerlies.. there now if that doesn't set the cat amongst the pigeons I dunno what will!!

 

[robp]

The fact that they still maunufacture and that the company is properly run also helps.

 

[billmacfarlane]

When I saw that heading I could feel a rant starting. Thankfully I don't have to. Well said. I've also owned both British and French boats , Sadler and Jeannneau. The finish on the Jeanneau which I owned for 12 years was far superior to the Sadler , and a super sailing boat to boot. Heavy weather ? I sailed both in winds of 30-35 knots on occasion. Both were capable but the Jeanneau was that thing that doesn't seem to mentioned by the ConNichRust guys - FUN. The French marketing guys cottoned on long ago that most sailing is done in small hops , not by sailing vast distances , and consequently came up with appropriate designs at a price that the public wanted. As Rob said the companies are well run and hugely successful.

 

[DoctorD]

I guess if we want to be controversial....

Sun Fasts, Sun Magics, Firsts usually all sail much better than most Westerlys or Sadlers (Starlights are fast and fun though). I used to sail a Fulmar, which is bomb proof but did not set the pulse racing and a Sadler 32 which, again was pretty tough but a little boring. The Sunfast 36 I used to race on was great fun.

People do want sailing ablity at a good price. The French keep on innovating in materials, design, production and are generally well run as businesses. In contrast, the latest Westerly, before they went bankrupt for the last time, was a 37 footer based on an old hull design (Tempest). Not a bad boat but where were the new materials, new layouts, production efficiencies? In the UK boatbuilding is still mainly a craft - which is fine if you can afford the skilled workmen and want a work of art - nothing wrong with that. It does mean though that a UK boatbuilder is more like a violin maker than e.g. a car manufacturer.

In fact with few exceptions the marine industry in the UK is very inefficient - hardly any of the myriad of suppliers, builders, chandlers seem to make money or survive for very long.

 

[alant]

I suppose the heavy French Government 'illegal' subsidies have nothing to do with this!
How much has any Brit Gov given to our Industry???
Probably wasting all the money on 'poor' bloody Farmers instead.

 

[robp]

Sorry Alan, can't run with that one. Not all the way at any rate. Yes the French government staunchly supports their own industry. Look at Renault in the 70's/80's. But you can't deny that the companies prove their worth. The quantity they sell proves it time and time again. What have they got right? Understanding today's market and running with or before it. When are Brits going to stop griping about others doing it, whatever way they do and do it ourselves?

 

[Guest]

Nothing wrong with them - not to everyone's taste or suitable for all types of sailing, perhaps, but good boats and great value for money.

(equally, I think they are all daft with some of the lightweight construction they use, like heavily flexible cockpit lockers even with the teak decking - wouldn't turn my nose up at any of them, though).

Humperdinck

Email: HJ@Seacracker.org
Website: www.seacracker.org

 

[lezgar]

Do you remember the D'lorean cars?

Mr D'lorean from the US came to UK and told the UK Gobernment that he wanted to build a factory in Britain and he need money. Uk Gobernment gave him hundred of millions of pound to build the factory for produce D'loreans. Nobody controlled he was doing ,the cars were very bad and the factory closed loosing millions of pounds (107 millions, I think to remember of tax payers money).

 

[HaraldS]

I think Jeaneaus are fine boats, my brother has one and I had rented one some years ago and I am impressed with what you get for the money.
I think it is like in many other businesses that when you go to mass production you win more than you loose. The large number of units that get built allows for a bigger investment up-front to get many details right and to find the most economic production process. In the car industry about a billion Euros goes into R&D of a new model, before production starts. Also shopping parts or getting certain parts built your way works better. In the end, small quantity, hand crafted cars lost totally: In quality, in perfromance, in cost and you could only argue individuality in the end. And that was not enough to survive in the end.
With sail boats we weem to be at a point where some mass production is possible, but volumes are not big enough to cover all markets. So it works in the mainstream, and the boats are good mass boats that are designed to meet the needs of the mainstream as a good compromise. If you don't like it, it gets more expensive quickly. Unlike with cars, with sail boats you can still get better quality and performance and customization to your needs for money.
Seems unlikely that the market will grow substantially in the near future to change that picture, but who knows...

 

[alant]

I have no problem with the product, Jens & Bens have some excellent boats. With the level of investment et al it is not suprising that they do it right. Difficult to get from our 'cottage' industry to their level without some support, whether Gov or Banks. How often (as we have seen over the last few years) have some of our excellent builders gone bust or had the plug pulled -even with overflowing order books!

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Thanks all for the answers given . But where are the people who have been knocking these boats ? I am only realy interested in the Sun Magic [selfish bugger that I am ]But is 10,500kg light for a 44ft boat is 2.2 mts keel shallow ?As I said in the original post this boat is better all round . than many boats double the price! I had a SunCharm 39 before this one ,and that, although not a fast boat ,was very stable,sailed in many a gale in the Cyclades, a very safe boat ,so why ? do people knock them as lightweight crap! Thanks all .Bob T

Bob T

 

[kidnapped]

This thread seems to be dealing with older BavJenBens when their designs were less 'extreme'compared with their present offerings. My [past] Ben 461 weighed in at a mighty 9600kgs, a tonne less than your 44 and 2foot longer. She was almost certainly more beamy, carried more beam aft and had draft of1.9m approx. I had fun with her but I thought her to be tippy and slammed alot to windard in a moderate seas. Quite adequate but not exactly relaxed cruising. I've now gone heavier,more moderate design,15.5tonnes and 2m draft. I'll let you know how more comfortable she is when I've clocked a few miles.

 

[Mirelle]

Sorry, cannot be bothered to rise to a trolled lure.

You like it; fine, good, glad you are happy.

I will stick with my boat, and I do not cover yours.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Sorry that you felt that I am trying to lure you into something ? All what I ask ,Is why do people who have /or most likley not had the above boats knock them . As posted by others who like my self think them fine .i am not trying to compare with old / wooden boats . but like for like GRPboats. Thanks for offering an opinion though.

Bob T

 

[30boat]

I have sailed in a Jeaneau Sun Fizz and although not the most exciting boat in the world, she was very well put together and quite fast.In fact I can´t remember hearing about basic structural faults with those boats.I wouldn't say the same for the Beneataux though.Those structural floorpans can become detached.
I own a Fulmar but what I'm really looking for is a Jeaneau Sunshine.
Fantastic sailing boats.

 

[davidhand]

I never see Catalina and Hunter (Legend) lumped in with the Jen, Ben, Bav, lot they are similar mass produced US boats, what is the concensus on these? Incidentaly I Live near San Francisco and sail a Beneteau First 375, no complaints.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Sorry but from what I haved picked up over the years . Legend, is on the bottom of the heap! Cheers bob t

Bob T

 

[davidhand]

Yes I agree.

 

[AndrewB]

Four criticisms

As most of the postings in this thread seem to be positive, perhaps I could play devil's advocate. There seem to be four different types of criticism of BenJenBav's:

1. Construction methods. The description of modern Bavaria construction in YM last year (Sept?) showed how a number of corners are cut compared with 'quality' yachts. The fear is that these will lead to a short-lived yacht, increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain in decent condition after a few years, unlike older solid GRP boats that seem to go on for ever. Only time will tell.

2. Strength. A striking feature of these yachts is how much lighter they are than their older contemporaries of similar size. That means a lot less material used in their build. Lightness makes for much better performance, as a number of posters have said. It may make the yacht more vulnerable in problem situations - less safe. Again from YM last year, the case of the Bavaria 38 that broke up after grounding on the Brambles in moderate conditions.

3. Stability. In particular against capsize. The hull design of these yachts is designed to give high initial stability - ability to hold sail well without tipping in moderate winds - at the expense of a low angle of vanishing righting moment, and slow self-righting ability when capsized. This was the MAIB's criticism of the Beneteau 39 that capsized in Biscay, again reported in YM a couple of years ago. I've heard it suggested that the hull shape makes these modern designs more prone to capsize by breaking waves than older designs, but don't know of any solid evidence for this.

4. Directional stability - the ability to hold a steady course and give the crew an easy time in rough seas, so they don't become exhausted. Long-keel high ballast yachts have the reputation for being best for this, but its bought at the expense of exciting performance. There is some interesting discussion of such design issues at http://www.kastenmarine.com/design_calcs.htm.

Having said all this, I still think BenJenBav's are perfectly adequate boats for the type of coastwise summer sailing most people want to do, either in the UK or chartering abroad. And they have many advantages, accomodation being one. I raced aboard a First last season, and found it a fun boat to sail.