Jeanne Socrates' JSD

[zoidberg]

There's a handful of ocean wanderers who have used and refined their Jordan Series Drogue over many years. Few have more experience of deploying and riding to a JSD than Jeanne. Here are her thoughts on stowage ready for deployment.....

Jeanne's JSD in its bag

 

[GHA]

Thnx, been wondering for some time now how to store mine on deck in the unlikely event of actually doing a passage where it might actually be needed, that's so obvious
One southern ocean guy launched his "backwards" to everyone else, the chain weight went in last. Seemed to be a much more relaxed way to do it with cones facing backwards on the way in.

edit - like this >

 

[zoidberg]

One enthusiast for deploying her JSD 'chain last' is Susanne Huber-Curphey. She claims this is a much-easier method of handling and controlling the kit as it deploys. And she's well-qualified to comment - Susanne Huber-Curphey receives the OCC Seamanship Award

 

[GHA]

One enthusiast for deploying her JSD 'chain last' is Susanne Huber-Curphey. She claims this is a much-easier method of handling and controlling the kit as it deploys. And she's well-qualified to comment - Susanne Huber-Curphey receives the OCC Seamanship Award

She & Jeanne & a few other superhumans have said they wouldn't go high latitudes without a JSD onboard. Must be very very few if any of us mere mortals on here will ever see such conditions where one is needed...

 

[zoidberg]

GHA, I understand your point.... but it misses the point.

Don Jordan researched and developed his Drogue system as he was shocked at the carnage during the '79 Fastnet - IN THE IRISH SEA!
It seems to have become some sort of 'belief system' that the sea states calling for a JSD are only to be found in Southern High Latitudes.
Wrong! Crucial research by So'ton University's Wolfson Unit demonstrated conclusively that ( summary ) 'any yacht beam-on to a breaking sea can be capsized if....'

A wave height of 60 per cent of the boat’s length capsized all the models they tested. So just to spell this out, a 32-footer would almost certainly be capsized a breaking wave with a height of as little as 20ft. Breaking seas

Too few yotties know of this. Even fewer are willing to believe it. That 'head-in-sand' ( there's another, more graphic expression ) attitude involves an extreme Act Of Faith in one's own quota of luck and/or a DILIGAF aproach to personal responsibility!!

There are plenty of occasions in the seas around our shores when the sea state gives breaking seas large enough to roll most of the boats we sail.

But belief systems like 'It can't happen to me because I'm careful/very skilled/my club's Commodore Designate/young, blond and good-looking' just don't stack up when the sea does what it does to fools.

 

[GHA]

GHA, I understand your point.... but it misses the point.

Don Jordan researched and developed his Drogue system as he was shocked at the carnage during the '79 Fastnet - IN THE IRISH SEA!
It seems to have become some sort of 'belief system' that the sea states calling for a JSD are only to be found in Southern High Latitudes.
Wrong! Crucial research by So'ton University's Wolfson Unit demonstrated conclusively that ( summary ) 'any yacht beam-on to a breaking sea.

Too few yotties know of this. Even fewer are willing to believe it. That 'head-in-sand' ( there's another, more graphic expression ) attitude involves an extreme Act Of Faith in one's own quota of luck and/or a DILIGAF aproach to personal responsibility!!

There are plenty of occasions in the seas around our shores when the sea state gives breaking seas large enough to roll most of the boats we sail.

But belief systems like 'It can't happen to me because I'm careful/very skilled/my club's Commodore Designate/young, blond and good-looking' just don't stack up when the sea does what it does to fools.

Diving straight for a JSD isn't the only option. How many boats round the UK are likely to go to the expense to structurally upgrade the boat & get a JSD. Where's the data to show having a JSD onboard around the UK would change much?
Just looking at the weather forecast would have prevented that Fastnet these days. Get windy.com & practice heaving too will cope with an awful lot of calamities.

 

[Roberto]

Too few yotties know of this.

Ref: wave height and boat size relationship Vs capsizing risk.

I think it's one of the most widely repeated statements (ok often misquoted) brought forward by anyone having read a couple of articles/or a book about heavy weather.

 

[zoidberg]

Ref: wave height and boat size relationship Vs capsizing risk.

Yes. One reads deeper into it and accepts the argument.... or one doesn't.

There's another discussion to be had about 'degradation of essential righting moment' caused by adding lots of top hamper - and not thinking it through.

 

[servus]

I read, I try to understand and then compare the gathered information to my own experiences.
The last part is difficult in this case, since I never was on the water in such horrible conditions which might warrant the deployment of such a drogue.

After experiencing the limited joy of changing my hanked on stays'l for a storm jib (in the med with a steady 35 to 40 knot wind, gusting up to 48 and some shortish steep maybe 3,5m waves) I tried to figure out how it must feel to deploy a series drogue in 50+knots and six to seven metre partly breaking waves.
Since I try to avoid such conditions I felt fairly safe at my present type of sailing.

I am planning now a longer offshore passage and tried to gather some information from the net. Now I run into a series by yachting world with Skip Novak talking about various aspects of his high latitude sailing. In one of the sequels he does not at all seem to be fond of tossing all kind of gear over the side in circumstances where you normally do not add risky manouvers to the already serious conditions. not to mention the retrieval of such tools.
Mr Novak seems to be a rather knowledgeable man in his field with a track record from racing to expeditions that speaks for itself.

Can anyone shine a light on this for me please.

Cheers, G.

 

[zoidberg]

I read, I try to understand and then compare the gathered information to my own experiences.

Can anyone shine a light on this for me please.

Cheers, G.

Skip Novak has huge experience of severe conditions, and his expertise is well worth weighing.
He operates heavy displacement expedition yachts - his1987 Pelagic ( now sold ) is 54' overall, while his 2003 Pelagic Australis is 77'.

The smaller the boat, the more frequently do conditions occur which might overwhelm it. As I understand it, a breaking sea of height 60% of a boat's LOA WILL capsize it if it is caught beam on - source: Wolfson Unit/So'ton University. The central purpose of a JSD is to hold the boat stern-to such breaking seas and not lying abeam.

Skip's 54' Pelagic would be 'in the frame' if beam-on to a ~36' breaking sea. His 77' boat.... 51'. Without a JSD, my 27' boat is in trouble when seas reach ~18'.

If one is of the opinion that such monster seas don't happen around here, then see OMG

 

[servus]

Good Morning zoidberg,
Thanks for your really meaningful reply.
I had gathered something like this - keeping the boat stern to the waves - as the main function of the JSD. I also can imagine how well it works IF everything works according to plan. If one has a windvane steering mounted things also become more tricky i guess.

My boat is a steel hulled, long keeled, rather heavy displacement (empty close to 14 t), 10,1 m waterline, 12,1m loa, cutter rigged sloop. After the above mentioned sailchange she was going quite comfortably and after I had gotten used to all, I was fairly comfy too.

My concern is rather the physical handling of all that gear, the loads which would occur, and later the retrieval under conditions which will probably still lively. Of course throwing out the drogue, getting down below and having your previously prepared tea out of the thermos will let one rest better than being blown and sprayed into total fatigue. I guess there the real advantage comes in.

I am always grateful for useful hints and knowlwdge.

Cheers, G.

 

[GHA]

I read, I try to understand and then compare the gathered information to my own experiences.
The last part is difficult in this case, since I never was on the water in such horrible conditions which might warrant the deployment of such a drogue.

After experiencing the limited joy of changing my hanked on stays'l for a storm jib (in the med with a steady 35 to 40 knot wind, gusting up to 48 and some shortish steep maybe 3,5m waves) I tried to figure out how it must feel to deploy a series drogue in 50+knots and six to seven metre partly breaking waves.
Since I try to avoid such conditions I felt fairly safe at my present type of sailing.

I am planning now a longer offshore passage and tried to gather some information from the net. Now I run into a series by yachting world with Skip Novak talking about various aspects of his high latitude sailing. In one of the sequels he does not at all seem to be fond of tossing all kind of gear over the side in circumstances where you normally do not add risky manouvers to the already serious conditions. not to mention the retrieval of such tools.
Mr Novak seems to be a rather knowledgeable man in his field with a track record from racing to expeditions that speaks for itself.

Can anyone shine a light on this for me please.

Cheers, G.

DO a search for Randall Reeves on youtube, he talks about heavy weather in the interviews. He spent a lot of time in the southern ocean & changed to running with the wind more often but then said when conditions are so indescribably awful that nothing you try will work, then it's time for deploy the jordan series drogue. It's the very last tool in the box in life challenging conditions.
From memory following jeanne socrates podcasts from down there as well as extreme conditions you get down there she would use hers to stop while a major weather system passed in front of her.
from looking a MAIB the data aren't there for monsters from the id round the UK, there's disasters that might actually happen like fires & hitting fishing boats.
Still have one though.... just doubt if it will actually be needed by us mere mortals.

 

[servus]

DO a search for Randall Reeves on youtube, he talks about heavy weather in the interviews. He spent a lot of time in the southern ocean & changed to running with the wind more often but then said when conditions are so indescribably awful that nothing you try will work, then it's time for deploy the jordan series drogue. It's the very last tool in the box in life challenging conditions.
From memory following jeanne socrates podcasts from down there as well as extreme conditions you get down there she would use hers to stop while a major weather system passed in front of her.
from looking a MAIB the data aren't there for monsters from the id round the UK, there's disasters that might actually happen like fires & hitting fishing boats.
Still have one though.... just doubt if it will actually be needed by us mere m

 

[servus]

Sorry must have pressed the wrong button

Hello GHA,
Thanks for the Randall Reeves reference.
I looked quickly into it and it seems to be a bonanza of experience.
I will spend some time reading the blog etc. Fantastic, looking forward.....
Cheers, G

 

[zoidberg]

My boat is a steel hulled, long keeled, rather heavy displacement (empty close to 14 t), 10,1 m waterline, 12,1m loa, cutter rigged sloop.

My concern is rather the physical handling of all that gear, the loads which would occur, and later the retrieval under conditions which will probably still lively.

This is one of those subjects where one's initial assumptions play a considerable part, as does vulnerability to 'confirmation bias'. There are those who say 'I can see a problem with that'.... and those who say 'Let's see if I can find a solution to that problem....' Guys like aero-engineer Don Jordan, f'r instance.

The problem he saw was the carnage of the '79 Fastnet disaster - which happened in the Celtic Sea between Lands End and the Irish coast - not the Southern Ocean.
Boats being rolled by jumbled breaking seas when they became beam-on to those seas.....

He developed a hypothesis, and had it tested by the US Coastguard. It worked. He didn't have an R&D budget, but used materials he - and other yotties - had to
hand - including heavy nylon rope. The weight and bulk of that had him suggest that the rearmost section of his long rode could be lighter rope, which of necessity involved knotting the sections together. Knots are considerably weaker than good splices, so splices were introduced.

Today, with the availability of very high-strength but light Dyneema, there's no good reason to have 'lighter-weight sections'. The whole rode can be one continuous length of Dyneema, without knots or joining splices. That's much easier to stow, and to handle. The original cones, made of ripstop nylon, frayed excessively. After several 'upgrades', today's cone material is far tougher than original. Another example of 'finding solutions' and not simply giving up when a problem is identified.

There are techniques for deploying and for recovery. Two of the most experienced in the use of JSDs are Susanne Huber-Curphey and Jeanne Socrates..... who is 81.
Jeanne S

If they can do it.....

One can consult Angus Coleman of OceanBrake, in Portland. I did. He knows all there is to know about JSDs..... and their development. OceanBrake

 

[GHA]

Boats being rolled by jumbled breaking seas when they became beam-on to those seas.....

If we are all in such terrible danger... how come it doesn't happen?
Where are the data of all this carnage?

MAIB reports of fires on yachts & collisions with fishing boats round the UK, no monsters from the ID......

 

[GHA]

Sorry must have pressed the wrong button

Hello GHA,
Thanks for the Randall Reeves reference.
I looked quickly into it and it seems to be a bonanza of experience.
I will spend some time reading the blog etc. Fantastic, looking forward.....
Cheers, G

Might have to watch this one yet again.. there is one thing which does seem to crop up amongst the big boys & girls out there, a strong streak of humility & sense of being exposed to probabilities where there are no black & white answers. Unlike forums... Even in Moitessier Randall says

Then 27:30 for JSD chat

 

[zoidberg]

If we are all in such terrible danger... how come it doesn't happen?
Where are the data of all this carnage?

It does happen. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention....

You might start with this: Fastnet Race Inquiry

 

[Frank Holden]

Well I've whizzed through the Fastnet Inquiry pdf but the only item of note relevant to this thread that I have found is attached below.
Now I haven't all that much experience in high Southern latttudes - about 6000 miles between Mar del Plata and Le Maire and v/v (4 passages) and a few Le Maire/Falklands and v/v.
Also two runs NZ to Puerto Montt in the mid 40s of about 11000 miles in total. Never seen any merit in going below 50º S
I have carried two 'Seabrakes' for the last 22 years and have never felt the need to deploy them.

The only time we have experienced damage was in quite light wind with a confused sea - a westerly swell suddenly had a heavy southerly swell over the top of it. One minute we were sitting atop a peak and then we quite literally fell into the abyss. That was when the self steerer's auxiliary rudder jumped ship and we had to hand steer for three weeks or so. No knock down, no water on deck, we had just fallen into a hole in the sea.

I don't think a drogue is of any use in a confused sea like that, in fact I think being slowed down by a drogue would put you at greater risk of damage by cross seas.
I can see a drogue being of value in avoiding broaching when running dead down hill with a regular swell. In a confused sea not so much.

Moving on a bit - in my not so humble opinion anyone wanting to round the Horn in a small boat should stay out of the box delineated by Boca de Guafo and the Horn to the east and the 95th meridian. That's where you get the NWly gales blowing over a heavy Wly or SWly swell.
Best to get south nice and early if you must go there.

 

[Frank Holden]

Thnx, been wondering for some time now how to store mine on deck in the unlikely event of actually doing a passage where it might actually be needed, that's so obvious
One southern ocean guy launched his "backwards" to everyone else, the chain weight went in last. Seemed to be a much more relaxed way to do it with cones facing backwards on the way in.

edit - like this >

That's exactly how I was taught to stream a Walker log and how I deploy my towed AquaGen impeller. Warp goes in on the port quarter then the impeller dropped in on stbd quarter.