Italy may have extended 90 days till June 2021

[Star-Lord]

I posted this in another thread but it is quite hard to find!

It seems Italy is giving UK residents until June 2021 to apply for residency. This is word from a friend with Italian immigration lawyer. Nothing official yet but this is the word. It may very well remain 'unofficial'. This should give us in Italy some breathing room. I am thinking we will be allowed in Italy until the end of June without a visa...

The Sicily crew are an interesting case... Did they pay for full winter contract or just till end of March?

As I have stated before I expect individual EU27 countries to grant UK extend stay visa or even just extended stay - maybe if a marina contract is produced?

I think Italy may be leading the pack! In the same way as they accepted boats at the height of lock down earlier in the year unlike almost every other European / world country - they will be the first to allow UK to spend longer than 90 days in their country? We shall see.

 

[Star-Lord]

This was told to me on Twitter by an old salt. Some of you may remember or know him.

 

[Tony Cross]

Greece is giving those Brits holding buff or blue EU registration cards until June 2021 to exchange them for permanent alien residence cards.

 

[Star-Lord]

Greece is giving those Brits holding buff or blue EU registration cards until June 2021 to exchange them for permanent alien residence cards.

But so far come Jan 1 with no blue card you must leave after 90 days? I wonder how long it will take them (Greece) to make their own rules and allow us longer stays (longer than 90 days) without residency.

 

[JFowler]

Greece is giving those Brits holding buff or blue EU registration cards until June 2021 to exchange them for permanent alien residence cards.

Tony,
Please share the process for applying for ‘permanent alien residence card’.

Thanks,
John

 

[BurnitBlue]

Don't worry. Rather large rally in Finland this weekend waving Finnish flags and placards for Fixit. Then we have the French Frexit growing stronger. The Italians are getting an itexit organised. The EU is starting to implode. We will soon be back to a seperate 6 month in each newly independant country. I think France will leave soon. They have a few hundred years of shadowing the UK whether it was colonising or yacht racing they were never far behind us picking up the crumbs. The strain for them is beginning to show. The very thought that we have slipped the leash and are heading for wealth and riches without them close behind will be too much.

Britain leads while others follow. It has ALWAYS been thus.

 

[newtothis]

 

[MapisM]

The Italians are getting an itexit organised.

Yaaaaaaaawwwwnnnnnnn....
I can't for the life of me understand how many more decades you (and anyone else who have been making these declarations for more time than I can remember) will need, before coming to terms with the reality.

 

[LittleSister]

It seems Italy is giving UK residents until June 2021 to apply for residency.

I am thinking we will be allowed in Italy until the end of June without a visa...

The second sentence doesn't follow from the first.

 

[MapisM]

You are right, that's not necessarily implied.
But from what I heard from a Brit friend who lives here, the second should indeed go with the first, at least for folks already physically in Italy.
As the OP correctly said, that's all yet to be officially approved, anyway.

 

[Alicatt]

It's the same in Belgium, we have until June 2021 to register for residency.

Tomorrow I go and see about importing my car, and transferring my driving licence.

Oh Duh! It's Monday tomorrow the community offices are shut

 

[Mistroma]

​

But so far come Jan 1 with no blue card you must leave after 90 days? I wonder how long it will take them (Greece) to make their own rules and allow us longer stays (longer than 90 days) without residency.

I received some information about 2 weeks ago and meant to post it and then managed to forget.

A friend forwarded some information from his lawyer in Greece regarding an application for a permit.

Firstly, for a UK citizen there is no other way of obtaining a residence permit in Greece than getting the Registration Certificate for EU citizens. You cannot apply for this Certificate in absentia, as we have already confirmed, until the end of December 2020. ​

​

A new law was issued this October for UK citizens who resided in Greece before the transition period (period since UK decided Brexit till the actual Brexit happened) and this law gives you the opportunity to be given new residence permits in Greece upon application. ​

​

The period of application will be from 1/1/2021 to 30/6/2021 and applications will be submitted to the Police Station of the place in Greece that you usually reside. Also, these applications for the new residence permits CAN BE DONE IN ABSENTIA, by an agent (who can be a lawyer) authorized to act on the applicant’s behalf. ​

No problem so far as I knew that you had to apply in person for the "buff card". I assumed that the second part referred to applications for the new bio-metric card and an in Absentia application might be useful apart from the fact that UK citizens will no longer be eligible in 2021.

The remainder of the letter is quite interesting.

The law does not specify the documents that a UK citizen who is already holder of the Registration Certificate for EU citizens must submit to get the new residence permit. Nor is clear what documents must be attached in an application by somebody who is not holder of a Registration Certificate for EU citizens.

The law says that those who do not have a current permit (Registration Certificate for EU citizens) should provide evidence that they were residents in Greece before the end of transition (before the end of December 2020). This evidence is not specified in the law.

It is of interest as my friend doesn't think he'll be able to get to Greece before 2021 and this seems to allow an application even without an existing "buff card". His lawyer is trying to determine the type of documents suitable. He also suggests collecting any documents "giving proof that he resided in Greece (even for a few months a year) in all years prior to December 2020".

It sounds as if my friend might be able to get the new bio-metric card by claiming residence in Greece for a few months a year prior to 2021. Number of years and exact length of stay aren't specified. I imagine old yard receipts wouldn't be very useful as they only mention the boat.

I could probably provide copies of credit card expenditure in Greece for several summers (food, quay receipts etc.). It does look a bit tricky to retrospectively prove residence in Greece (I have lots of date stamped pictures posted on my web-site but they could be faked ).

It does look as if the Greek government are trying to find ways to allow UK citizens to remain for more that 90 days in 180 days. I suspect more creative laws and more widely applicable laws may appear in due course.

 

[Tony Cross]

I received some information about 2 weeks ago and meant to post it and then managed to forget.

A friend forwarded some information from his lawyer in Greece regarding an application for a permit.

Firstly, for a UK citizen there is no other way of obtaining a residence permit in Greece than getting the Registration Certificate for EU citizens. You cannot apply for this Certificate in absentia, as we have already confirmed, until the end of December 2020.

A new law was issued this October for UK citizens who resided in Greece before the transition period (period since UK decided Brexit till the actual Brexit happened) and this law gives you the opportunity to be given new residence permits in Greece upon application.

The period of application will be from 1/1/2021 to 30/6/2021 and applications will be submitted to the Police Station of the place in Greece that you usually reside. Also, these applications for the new residence permits CAN BE DONE IN ABSENTIA, by an agent (who can be a lawyer) authorized to act on the applicant’s behalf.

No problem so far as I knew that you had to apply in person for the "buff card". I assumed that the second part referred to applications for the new bio-metric card and an in Absentia application might be useful apart from the fact that UK citizens will no longer be eligible in 2021.

The remainder of the letter is quite interesting.

The law does not specify the documents that a UK citizen who is already holder of the Registration Certificate for EU citizens must submit to get the new residence permit. Nor is clear what documents must be attached in an application by somebody who is not holder of a Registration Certificate for EU citizens.

The law says that those who do not have a current permit (Registration Certificate for EU citizens) should provide evidence that they were residents in Greece before the end of transition (before the end of December 2020). This evidence is not specified in the law.

It is of interest as my friend doesn't think he'll be able to get to Greece before 2021 and this seems to allow an application even without an existing "buff card". His lawyer is trying to determine the type of documents suitable. He also suggests collecting any documents "giving proof that he resided in Greece (even for a few months a year) in all years prior to December 2020".

It sounds as if my friend might be able to get the new bio-metric card by claiming residence in Greece for a few months a year prior to 2021. Number of years and exact length of stay aren't specified. I imagine old yard receipts wouldn't be very useful as they only mention the boat.

I could probably provide copies of credit card expenditure in Greece for several summers (food, quay receipts etc.). It does look a bit tricky to retrospectively prove residence in Greece (I have lots of date stamped pictures posted on my web-site but they could be faked ).

It does look as if the Greek government are trying to find ways to allow UK citizens to remain for more that 90 days in 180 days. I suspect more creative laws and more widely applicable laws may appear in due course.

That's interesting, thanks for this. We've not been sure of the position of UK citizens who are not already registered. The requirements for third country citizens are prohibitive.

We have been told (ultimately by the police responsible) that the new card will cost €16, that those with buff registration cards (< 5 years) will get a 5 year residency card and those with blue registration cards (> 5 years) will get a 10 year residency card. We will also apparently need to present all the same evidence of residence as we did to get the registration cards along with four passport sized photographs.

I've not heard anything about UK citizens applying for residence after the end of 2020, though I note from what you say of the requirement to prove residence before the end of 2020. The police here accepted a yearly marina contract as proof of residence when obtaining the buff registration card, so they may also accept that as proof of residence after 2020...?

 

[Mistroma]

That's interesting, thanks for this. We've not been sure of the position of UK citizens who are not already registered. The requirements for third country citizens are prohibitive.

We have been told (ultimately by the police responsible) that the new card will cost €16, that those with buff registration cards (< 5 years) will get a 5 year residency card and those with blue registration cards (> 5 years) will get a 10 year residency card. We will also apparently need to present all the same evidence of residence as we did to get the registration cards along with four passport sized photographs.

I've not heard anything about UK citizens applying for residence after the end of 2020, though I note from what you say of the requirement to prove residence before the end of 2020. The police here accepted a yearly marina contract as proof of residence when obtaining the buff registration card, so they may also accept that as proof of residence after 2020...?

I was expecting a charge to "upgrade" to the new card and this was the first I'd heard about "retrospective" evidence of residence. I had expected to use a yard invoice and give their address for contact purposes when applying this year. Of course Covid blew that out of the water.

I know logic doesn't always work in these matters but I thought it was likely that a yard invoice might be an issue if claiming residence in previous years. If I'd turned up in 2019 I would have really been saying the following:

• "I'm here in Greece just now and want to stay for more than 3 months".
• "Please use the address on this invoice if you need to contact me"
• "Here is proof I can pay my way"

In 2020 a UK citizen would be trying to prove they'd been staying in Greece for several months in a previous year. I imagine that will be more difficult to prove that stating "currently standing in front of you and telling you I would like to stay for more than 3 months".

My own feeling is that the Greek officials will be told not to be too diligent in doing anything much to throw people with money out of the country.

Luckily, it is only of academic interest in my case (Irish passport).

 

[Tony Cross]

I was expecting a charge to "upgrade" to the new card and this was the first I'd heard about "retrospective" evidence of residence. I had expected to use a yard invoice and give their address for contact purposes when applying this year. Of course Covid blew that out of the water.

I know logic doesn't always work in these matters but I thought it was likely that a yard invoice might be an issue if claiming residence in previous years. If I'd turned up in 2019 I would have really been saying the following:

• "I'm here in Greece just now and want to stay for more than 3 months".
• "Please use the address on this invoice if you need to contact me"
• "Here is proof I can pay my way"

In previous years (whilst we were still citizens of an EU member state) there was no such thing (in Greece) as 'obtaining residence'. We had an automatic right of residence here by virtue of our EU citizenship. All we were required to do was to register our presence after 90 days, provide a contact address and proof of healthcare (the EHIC).

It's all going to be very different after the transition period ends, because we'll no longer have an automatic right of residence. The requirements (in Greece) for third party nationals to obtain residence are huge - including a minimum monthly income (I think over €2000) and heath care insurance equivalent to the basic Greek system, or ownership of property worth at least €250,000. This is why it's been so important for UK residents here to register whilst they still could.

What I found interesting (and new) in your post was that Greece seems to be allowing UK citizens who are not registered to obtain a residence permit if they can prove they were resident in Greece prior to December 2020. That's a lifeline to those who didn't register (for whatever reason).

In 2020 a UK citizen would be trying to prove they'd been staying in Greece for several months in a previous year. I imagine that will be more difficult to prove that stating "currently standing in front of you and telling you I would like to stay for more than 3 months".

I know from friends in the marina here that they were accepting a yearly marina contract as sufficient proof of residence in Greece for the purposes of registration. I would hope that if people were able to produce a yearly marina contract in Greece for some year(s) prior to 2021 that might possibly do to show you had been resident in Greece whilst still an EU citizen.

My own feeling is that the Greek officials will be told not to be too diligent in doing anything much to throw people with money out of the country.

Honestly, I have no idea what they will do. I suspect a lot will depend on how Greek citizens in the UK are treated (there are more Greeks in the UK than Brits in Greece). Greece really could go either way on this I think, it's hard to tell.

Luckily, it is only of academic interest in my case (Irish passport).

It's of academic interest to me too, because we gave up the boat some years ago and acted in plenty of time to make sure all our ducks were in a row long ago - as all other sensible Brits here have done.

 

[Mistroma]

I'm afraid I'm as bad as many others when talking about "residence". I do try to mention the "buff card" as the means of registering longer stays but do lapse and say residence.

I have never gone to the trouble of registering my presence and intention to remain longer than 90 days and don't believe I've ever met anyone from EU who did do it. It was just one of these theoretical things you should do but nobody bothered (even a UK friend who has spent 6 months in Greece every summer since 2000. I've lived in France, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece for 180 days (often a little bit longer) and never worried about it.

I'd be completely stunned if my Swedish friends intend to do anything different next year. I might not bother either next year if my wife also had an Irish passport. Unfortunately, her UK passport means I'll need to do something as I will also be in the spotlight.

I met several people who had applied for a "buff card" in 2018 and used their winter storage yard's address. I imagine that it will continue to be acceptable in future and that's what I'll use. However, I can see it might be a little problematic for a UK person using it to claim they spent following the summer in Greece. The Greek haven't actually produced a list of acceptable documentation yet.

I should have applied in 2019 but procrastinated and said I'd do it in 2020 as there was plenty of time left and then Covid arrived on the scene. I bet many other UK citizens found themselves in the same situation. My only excuse is that I had a plan B with my Irish passport application in the system.

 

[syvictoria]

...as all other sensible Brits here have done.

Wow. We really do seem to be getting a them and us mentality, even within the 'liveaboard' community. Such a great pity.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I still think you are worrying too much. Governments spend literally millions each year advertising their country to attract tourists. Do you really think that after successfully getting you to fly in and spend heaps of your countries currency, they will want to deport you after three month while you are still spending. Two phrases from the military. "Don't ask, Don't tell". "Rules are so they can get at you, not so that you can get at them."

Rules allow governments to get rid of people they want to get rid of. Without those rules they would not have a legal leg to stand on if a such an undesirable came to their notice. Keep quiet, pay your bills. Stop inventing difficulties that in reality do not exist. It is fair to worry about exceeding a 6 month stay perhaps but anything less and I am sure a blind eye will apply.

Another phrase comes to mind. This one by Oscar Wilde. "The only way to stay in the memory of the commercial class is to not pay ones bill.

 

[syvictoria]

I still think you are worrying too much. Governments spend literally millions each year advertising their country to attract tourists. Do you really think that after successfully getting you to fly in and spend heaps of your countries currency, they will want to deport you after three month while you are still spending. Two phrases from the military. Don't ask, Don't tell. Rules are so they can get at you, not so that you can get at them.

Rules allow governments to get rid of people they want to get rid of. Without those rules they would not have a legal leg to stand on if a such an undesirable came to their notice. Keep quiet, pay your bills. Stop inventing difficulties that in reality do not exist. It is fair to worry about exceeding a 6 month stay perhaps but anything less and I am sure a blind eye will apply.

Another phrase comes to mind. This one by Oscar Wilde. "The only way to stay in the memory of the commercial class is to not pay ones bill.

Dangerous twaddle, I'm afraid.

"Two phrases from the military. Don't ask, Don't tell." That is a worry.

 

[Mistroma]

I still think you are worrying too much. Governments spend literally millions each year advertising their country to attract tourists. Do you really think that after successfully getting you to fly in and spend heaps of your countries currency, they will want to deport you after three month while you are still spending. Two phrases from the military. Don't ask, Don't tell. Rules are so they can get at you, not so that you can get at them.

Rules allow governments to get rid of people they want to get rid of. Without those rules they would not have a legal leg to stand on if a such an undesirable came to their notice. Keep quiet, pay your bills. Stop inventing difficulties that in reality do not exist. It is fair to worry about exceeding a 6 month stay perhaps but anything less and I am sure a blind eye will apply.

Another phrase comes to mind. This one by Oscar Wilde. "The only way to stay in the memory of the commercial class is to not pay ones bill.

I'm pretty certain you are correct and I do expect the Greek government to do something to help UK citizens remain for more than 90 but less than 183 days. They will only bother if EU/UK talks dont' achieve anything helpful in that area and will obviously target visitors with money to spend.

However, the project manager in me says if something has low chance of happening but a high impact if it does, I look at ways to handle it. If a zero cost option with no downside exists to remove a risk then I'd always take it.

I might just live with the risk if the only options left are very expensive and not guaranteed to work.