ISDMT #2 - Is this correct?

[Wansworth]

Re: Story repeats

Maybe VALENCIA(Hive of no good populists) wants to clear out all those smelly vagrant liverboards to make room for super yachts with super people so they can watch the super Americas cup,Spain associates yachts with wealth and if your not wealthy you DONT deserve a yacht,well maybe a runaboutTo understand this problem you have to understand theSpanish ..... almost impossible!!

 

[LadyJessie]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]
Advice from whom?

[/ QUOTE ]From one of the very small community of accountants and lawyers that understand international taxation and residency issues. Most do not, as this is a very specialised field. The lawyer Lemain quote above is a good example of the normal type who might have a grasp of national legal issues but no clue of EU migrant rules, to which this is a subset.

To answer your question directly; you will find them by contacting the big 4 accounting firms and the big legal offices in London and ask for an 'expat' issues expert. They have them aplenty, but you will usually not find them in any other place. The market is too small to support this. Don't be afraid of the 'big' tag here; that does not necessarily mean a 'big price tag'. They are very good at charging big money to big companies (I know, I did it) but they are usually very reasonable with smaller clients. It broadens their case experience which is very worthwhile and they will normally charge very reasonable fares to individual clients. Again, I did.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Kerikey!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Good summation. The blind leading the blind.

I think this long thread has been an excellent example of the benefit of what I usually advice; in matters of expatriate taxation: seek professional advice. Your individual financial situation can not be assessed and valued on any web page. Assuming you will find it there is delusional. A liveaboard cruiser is always a very special case that is never covered in 'basic' tax rule presentations. Don't gamble your own money by believing anything you read here.

This is a very complicated field and it is constantly changing. Seek good advice before you take any action and disregard most (if not all) said on threads like these.

[/ QUOTE ]Thank you so much for your helpful contribution.

If the law on taxation on british owned boats in Europe is constantly changing, could you at least tell us where this is recorded.

 

[LadyJessie]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]
could you at least tell us where this is recorded.

[/ QUOTE ]The thread above has dealt with all the issues of expat life in Spain (and by slide the rest of the EU) and there just is not a single place where all these complex issues are correctly assembled. I understand the wish that life would be that simple, but unfortunately it is not. You will have to seek personal advice if you want to protect your money.

 

[franksingleton]

Re: Story repeats

A slightly shorter version of the CA doc used to be available on the CA open site. A CA member might care to see if our doc could be made open. I am rather busy just now.

We do stress the importance of taking advice and keeping your nose clean. As far as I know, if you do spend over half a year in a country you become liable to taxation under the rules of the country. Spain does seem more concerned than some other countries but remember that Spain has a very large number of other nationals who use the resources of the country. My guess is that makes them more sensitive. You may get away with it if you keep your head down and do not transgress any laws or have an accident that brings you to the notice of the authorities. But, better be safe than sorry. Ensure that you can demonstrate how long you have been in tghe country and, yes, it can be the sum total of several visits. Some Spanish officials used to regard being in Gibraltar as being in Spain!

At the time that we wrote the doc, the only cases that we knew about were where people caught were cases of someone flagrantly overstaying the time limit or getting involved in some misdemeanour, perhaps unofficial chartering or something of that sort.

We make no claims for our doc. It was a best endeavours exercise and we did do some sounding of legal beagles. One problem (of many) is the autonomous nature of the regions. The basic rules may be defined centrally, application may vary greatly.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: C A replies

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any CONFIRMED reports about the application of the 30 days rule outside the Valencia autonomous region?

[/ QUOTE ] Not that I know of and I'm not sure that we have a confirmed case of this tax rule being applied even in Valencia. I suspect (nothing more) that the Spanish know it's in contravention of present EU rules.

[ QUOTE ]
If none, we could be seeing a local application of something that others might just wish would go away.

[/ QUOTE ] I think that many have shared information and sentiments from those affected so any reader of these two recent threads can judge for themselves. At best we are guessing. The 30 day rule seems to be enshrined in law but it contravenes EU law. <shrug>

[ QUOTE ]
Just look who currently governs that area. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Generally seem to try to cause trouble for t'others when they themselves are not in power, and with few if any scruples.

[/ QUOTE ] Indeed, and they are convicted criminals as well. Furthermore, the innocent folk who purchased property that had proper planning permission issued by the corrupt local government have had no restitution, AFAIK? There is no way that any person of sound mind should invest their capital in Spain; there seems to be no basic legal redress.

[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, I won't sleep well tonight. Knock knock.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you on a boat? I wonder if Gib might be forced to open up the anchorage north of the runway, for Brits?

[ QUOTE ]
Do we know if the 30 days rule is new in the 2007 law and was not in the 1992 law??

[/ QUOTE ] I have no idea. I only know what appears on the EU site and the information (the core of which I have posted here) received from my lawyer in the Spring.

[ QUOTE ]
If it is new, I'd be more worried.

[/ QUOTE ] I think all you can do is assume that it is correct. It all depends on what is at stake for you. If it is pretty trivial for you, then don't wreck your life by uprooting yourself. If the sums involved (and the implications of re-flagging and getting quals) are significant to you, then get out as soon as the weather is fine. Another possibility, at some risk, is to go to the local major port and talk it through, and come to some agreement that either you will leave in x weeks or pay y. It is a risk, though. Maybe a gestor or lawyer could help but it all depends on the sums involved.

[ QUOTE ]
If not a new rule, I'd be inclined to think that having not applied it in 16 years means there is really no interest in being too heavy-handed about this matter.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't agree. We are seeing an exponential rise in reported assessments. We have been told by others that they have heard of an edict from Madrid that this tax is to be collected.

[ QUOTE ]
Notwithstanding all that has been said up to now about the 30-day rule, the 183 days rule is a different kettle of fish, and far more justified and defensible, as I tried to outline in another of my earlier posts in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ] Indeed, I don't think that there was ever much doubt about the 183 day in one calendar year rule resulting in possible residency. However the residency does not only depend on the 183 days, there are other issues that can be taken into account though 183 days is prima facie. There is also the question whether a 'vehicle' tax should apply to a yacht that is one's only home. I don't know the answer to that...it needs to be investigated.

[ QUOTE ]
I've sent a PM with other information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, appreciated and have PMd you back.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: C A replies

I'm beginning to think that someone or a group of people should contact the British Embassy in Madrid for assistance. I think that the key word is 'assistance'. Don't ask them what they CAN do, tell them your problem and what you would like them to do to assist you.

Ideally, this would be approached by a group of affected people including liveaboards deemed resident and owners abroad.

We might get some contact at ministerial level to at least establish the tax laws and whether they are legal under EU rules.

If that goes against you, then consider getting HMG to put pressure onto Gib to re-open the anchorage. It would be a good bolt-hole especially for those with limited funds.

I don't believe that the British Embassy is permitted to just ignore the request; if it does so, given the support information you will be carrying, such as Telegraph articles, EU law printouts, etc, they would be exposing themselves. You will get a good hearing at a senior level. That's what I would do if I was in Spain right now, either alone or with others. The trick is to make an appointment with a named individual. Only the dross turn up at Embassies on-spec, and they won't be seen other than through a window. Dress smart-casual or lounge suit, preferably with a tie.

I have a lot of experience in making appointments with overseas Embassies so if you have problems, PM me or email the address below (better)

 

[absit_omen]

Re: C A replies

Good idea.

I am sure that the Embassy have nothing better to do than help a relatively small number of Brits to indulge their escapist fantasies by challenging the edicts of their host nation.

After all, there is nothing else important going on in the world at the moment, is there?

At best you will walk away with a photocopied list of 'Spanish Lawyers who speak English'.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: C A replies

You are quite wrong about that.

 

[absit_omen]

Re: C A replies

OK, prove me wrong.

 

[absit_omen]

Re: C A replies

Apologies, last comment was a bit rude. Hope I did not spoil your breakfast.

You probably do not remember but, about a year ago, when you posted about commissioning a Spanish lawyer in Almerimar (or Almeria or wherever) to sort this lot out I told you that you were wasting your time, effort and money. You did not listen and you are out of pocket and none the wiser.

You are now encouraging others to lobby the British Embassy in Madrid! It just will not work over a matter so singular and narrow as this. For God's sake don't go sailing in US waters with these sort of issues (and there is lots of potential for lots of 'issues' over there) or you will find yourself in the Nick. As for 'forcing' Gib to open an anchorage for Brits (only!??). I was beginning to think you were trolling.

Anyway. I look forward to developments.

 

[Wansworth]

Re: C A replies

Went to talk to the inspecter of special taxes in the customs.He said it was not thirty days but 6 months that an individual could not be in the country without registring.A boat could remain in the country if it was sealed.So what I can gather you can have a boat in Spain for 6 months thenhave it sealed up for another 6 in any one year.Sealing up does not meanyou cannot be on the boat but it is imobile.Years back my boat was sealed up but I could still be aboard but could not use it till she was re registeredunder Spanish flag.A mate of mind left his boat over the winter but sealed and came back in the Spring and continued his time in Spanish waters.The inspecter was adamant that the regulations are the same in the uk,maybe have a look at uk customs practice.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: C A replies

That's very interesting. Which province was that in?

[ QUOTE ]
He said it was not thirty days but 6 months that an individual could not be in the country without registring

[/ QUOTE ] Is that registering himself (which is a requirement) or the boat?

[ QUOTE ]
A boat could remain in the country if it was sealed.

[/ QUOTE ] Is that a boat belonging to a resident or a non-resident and if the latter, may it be an EU citizen? I don't think that a Spanish resident can seal a boat and live on it in Spain, but I could be wrong?

Did the inspector give you the name or code of the rules that he was using?

Sealing is very commonly used by US citizens who are living aboard in the EU. They usually put a seal on the helm, I believe. I'm not sure that this can be done indefinitely? Isn't there a limit? Several of my US friends have had to leave the EU and get their passports stamped in N Africa just to avoid tax issues.

 

[Wansworth]

Re: C A replies

Lugo,Galicia.He was referingto the person.The boat would belong to a non national.No codes im afraid,He had a small book which seemed to have everything you should want to know.I took up a bit of his time but some thing could have been lost in translation.But the PRICINTO would be the way to go.He was definate that 30 days not correct.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: C A replies

Thanks, can I put this a different way?........

Case 1. A British Citizen who normally lives (and works or is retired) in the UK owns a yacht which he keeps in a Spanish marina all year round, for holidays. He spends a few weeks a year on his yacht and is in no way 'resident' in Spain. Does Case 1 have a tax liability in respect of his yacht? If so, is the 'precinto' the way to avoid it? If so, how long can Case 1 continue to play this 'game'? One year...ten years...?

Case 2. A retired British couple living on their yacht sail from the UK to the Med and decide to stay for a while in a Spanish marina. After 183 days in any calendar year, this couple will become 'ordinarily resident' and at that time all their tax affairs come under the microscope of the Spanish authorities. Can this British couple, Case 2, simply have their boat sealed and then continue to live on it (use it, but not go to sea) or, since they are now 'ordinarily resident' in Spain, must they re-flag the boat as Spanish and pay the ISDMT?

Sorry if this post seemed unduly pedantic. Also, I imagine that you were asking the questions for your own circumstances. However, Case 1 and Case 2 seem to be the ones that are causing the most trouble or potential trouble.

 

[Wansworth]

Re: C A replies

Lemain I would consider in the CASE 1 that there is no reason to supose that the arrangement of sealing the boat could not be repeated every year.In CASE 2 sealing up would not be applicable.Example although I married a spanish woman the result is the same.I was visited by aduanas and told that I had overstayed my time ,6 months.The process is then : Pricinto although there is full access no movement of the boat allowedThen written statements etc.Then a visit to the office and a choice:Move the boat out of territorial waters plus fine or register under Spanish flag plus fine.We paid no tax as it was our home but the paperwork a bit worrying but can be done by an agent.After that you have to have at least the minimum exam to navigate in inshore waters......This was in 1992

 

[Jaime_de_Castro]

Good evening,

I am Jaime de Castro, Spanish Maritime Lawyer.

This tax (Impuesto Especial sobre Determinados Medios de Transporte (ISDMT) known as impuesto de matriculación or registering tax) only applies to resident Boat Owners. This tax is the same tax citizens pay for cars or motorbikes in Spain. It is only applied to residents (official or not). All the Spanish companies and individuals pay it and now tax authorities are focusing on foreign residents. But, I repeat, it is only intended for residents. If you are not an official resident ( NIE and tarjeta de residencia issued) you are not in the main focus of Hacienda, except if they manage to evidence that you are a de facto resident.



If you are not resident and therefore stay in Spain less than 6 months a year, despite your vessel is permanently within the territory, you are not obliged to pay this tax.



I know there is not such a levy in other neighbouring countries and it means that pleasure crafts under registered in Spain cost 13% of their value more than in other places. Add 16% of VAT and calculate.Be sure it is a matter of complain and debate in every seminar or meeting we hold… but it is the Law.



I hope it clarifies.

Jaime de Castro
www.decastro.es

 

[grumpygit]

Thank god for this reply from one who does know what he should be talking about.
Lets hope this will silence all the scare mongers and bar stool barristers.
What a drag these threads have been and it's all been answered in such few words !!!!!!
Thank you Jaime de Castro

If you have instigated this letter Grehan or whoever, well done and three cheers. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Anonymous]

It is very kind of you to share your professional advice with us here. Thank you.

Early in 2008 I paid Del Prado & Partners Solicitors S.L. in Nerja to advise me on this issue and their advice was that the law applied to residents and non-residents alike, and was payable after the vessel had been in Spain for more than 30 days. Del Prado gave me the legal and fiscal codes of the laws that applied and re-checked their work after I questioned whether this could possibly be correct.

I need to get an answer to this question. Having already paid Del Prado €500 for their opinion (and I assume that they are qualified lawyers) I am surprised that their advice is different from yours.

Could you please confirm which legal and/or fiscal codes you are working with? Are these things ambiguous under Spanish law, perhaps?

 

[Anonymous]

Before we get too excited, there are material differences between the 'advice' and wording in the post in this thread and the legal advice I paid for and received in writing from my Spanish lawyers.

We need to get to the bottom of this. As a 'new user' there is every chance that Jaime won't navigate his way back to this thread. If we don't hear from him in a day or so I will make contact with him at his firm, or via my Spanish lawyers.

Presumably a regular visitor to this thread pointed Jaime to our thread. Please PM me or email to the spamgourmet address below if that was you.