ISDMT #2 - Is this correct?

[Anonymous]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]
I hope Lemain reads this, takes note of the 30 days, and the new sliding scale of percentages, previously understood by me to be a fixed 12%, but now obviously not so.

[/ QUOTE ]Could you give me a link to that? I've had a look at that document and can't find the scale you are referring to. When you say "takes note of the 30 days" do you mean that it supports my lawyers that the tax is due after the vessel has been in Spain for longer than 30 days?

 

[Plomong]

Re: Story repeats

Lemain,

Please download and read the document from JamesFrance's post above. It seems to be the relevant law published in the Spanish BOE. It is a restructuring of a tax defined in the earlier law "Ley 38/1992".

The relevant part starts on page 14 of the document, left hand column, where it starts "Disposicion adicional octava". The sliding scale is on the top left column of page 16, with the categories defined on page 15. The 30 days are defined on page 15, left hand column, item d).

Hope this helps.

Plomong

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Story repeats

That helps enormously, thanks. It certainly looks as though my lawyer was correct. After 30 days in the country, you are liable to pay ISDMT regardless of whether you are a resident.

I don't understand the table, though and all my Spanish textbooks and dictionary are stored in the bilge (as we are doing Italian right now). Can you explain the sliding table to me? Many thanks.

 

[Plomong]

Re: Story repeats

Lemain,

It seems each motor is classed as 1, 2, 3, or 4 depending on the grams of CO2 it emits per kilometer. How that is established based on the available data I don't know, probably by a manufacturer's declaration or the motor type data (I don't have mine available here, it's on the boat, so I can't check if that data is supplied on the type spec sheet). If I recall correctly, the % applied in a case I know here in Bilbao was 12%, flat with no reference to gr/km or any other data. Horsepower was supplied, I think, but I can't be sure of that.

Then, if the autonomous region where the registration is taking place has established a percentage or scale or whatever, that is the one applied. If the region has not established a % or scale, the table in the law is applied. The Basque Country has established such %, as indicated above, so the table is not applicable here. Probably indicates why no other data than valuation was required here!!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Story repeats

That's what it looked like to me. That is pretty nonsensical for a sailing yacht. Since the entire 'Act' is about the environment i.e. it is changing previous regulations for environmental reasons, might one infer that sailing yachts should have a zero tax band? My Spanish is not good enough to get the nuances in a legal document.

 

[Grehan]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]
After 30 days in the country, you are liable to pay ISDMT regardless of whether you are a resident.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kerikey!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

This being such a long thread I've probably lost the plot (almost certainly! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) along the way, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but from starting out wanting some clarification about ISDMT levied on liveaboard boat owners (that's shorthand), we then progressed to examining its possible application to non-livedaboard boats (shorthand), which seemed pretty far-fetched. Now we go from 6 months in Spain to 30 days. Ay ay ay.

Seriously guys, how real is this? We are talking about having to import a boat into a country whose waters one has been in (the boat has been in) for just 30 days.
I'm not being critical of you, nor do I dismiss your considerable efforts in digging all the references up, but blimey it does seem literally unbelievable.

OK, so here's the next.
In the main (shorthand again) we've been talking about Spain. Spain is Spain, I understand that things there might not be that, er, logical? (I'm going back for a week, tomorrow)
Are you also saying that this 30 day-import-tax-registration-homologation-qualification stuff could/does apply throughout the EU, not just Spain? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Where are the headlines in Yachting Monthly?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Story repeats

Yes, you are right. The Spanish law, as my lawyer said, seems to say that you are liable to ISDMT after your boat has been in their waters for 30 days, regardless of whether you are resident in Spain. Furthermore, this is only the first step on the re-flagging process.

As for the wider implication, i.e. the rest of the EU, the EU rules that we have been posting in these threads actually give you 185 days grace, in any twelve month period. So the Spanish rules seem to be not allowed by the EU rules. Who would like to take this up to Brussels /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif? It could be that the Spanish know that they cannot legally charge before 185 days so they leave the 30 days on the statute book but don't enforce it?

However, what does seem clear from the Spanish and the EU rules -- and these are from Spanish Government and EU websites -- is that non-residents become liable to the tax. 30 days, or 185 days? That we don't know. One complication is that the 185 days for the boat is in any period of 12 months whereas for 'Ordinary Residency' it is in a calendar year.

Scary, eh? BUT we don't know of a single non-resident who has been assessed. OTOH, they does seem to be a flurry of activity right now.

 

[grumpygit]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]


OK, so here's the next.
In the main (shorthand again) we've been talking about Spain. Spain is Spain, I understand that things there might not be that, er, logical? (I'm going back for a week, tomorrow)
Are you also saying that this 30 day-import-tax-registration-homologation-qualification stuff could/does apply throughout the EU, not just Spain? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Where are the headlines in Yachting Monthly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Has any one tried the RYA to see if they can give any clarity to this matter. Also I would think the insurance industry should be on the case as well. All sorts of strange claims could be made against them, as in someone gets a large tax bill they can't afford. The rest I will leave to ones imagination

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]

Has any one tried the RYA to see if they can give any clarity to this matter.

[/ QUOTE ]I vote that the oxymoron of the month!

 

[grumpygit]

Re: Story repeats

I know where you're coming from, It was a tad tongue in cheek.

To much of a commitment and energy for that lot ! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Grehan]

Boat Tax ?????

I suspect both the RYA and Cruising Association could provide an answer. I also suspect that the answer would result from some kind of information that is either slightly or significantly 'misheard' or otherwise less than fully reliable, complete, or out of date. Maybe I'm being unfair.
See http://www.spainvia.com/boats.htm
Anyone tried contacting Ted Osborn or Frank Singleton, noted as the two C.A/RYA experts?

[Edit]
Sent them an email.

[Edit #2]
FWIW - Here's an article that's appeared in the local Torrevieja newspaper this week.
http://www.costablancaleader.com/letters/article.php?article_id=17448&article_section_id=1

 

[bazobeleza]

Re: Story repeats

Quote

:- OTOH, there does seem to be a flurry of activity right now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not just boat owners it seems.

I was at a party last and was speaking to a freind who has just come back from spain where he has property. He told me that Spain is in very deep ka ka at the present and the tax authorities are looking at every conceivable legal (and otherwise) means of extracting cash.

His particular beef is that he is being assessed to pay 25% of gross rental earnings on his property, even though he has paid all his local council etc taxes in spain, and makes a tax declaration in this country. He has a spanish lawyer on it who says its going to get worse because the spanish govt put a lot of their eggs in the property boom which now isn't.

He's a sailer and says regrets not buying a boat because it easier to move than a house.

So it seems that the spanish tax authorities may well start garnering in taxes on all boats, irrespective of residency or not. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Grehan]

C A replies

I've had a reply from Frank Singleton, who says . .
I have had a very cursory glance at this extended discussion. I do not think that I have anything to add to what we wrote previously on the CA website.
See http://myca.org.uk/system/files/SpanishTaxes2008.pdf
In very simple terms, if you live long enough in a country to be regarded as domiciled then you live by their rules. It still seems to be the case that it is the tax situation for the person and not where the boat is kept that is the important matter. Our impression, mine at least, right from the start is that some of those crying foul are trying to avoid
paying tax anywhere.

Personally I don't think that anyone here, who might conceivably be thought of as crying foul, is "trying to avoid paying taxes anywhere". Some might be, but I don't think that's the point of the concern, and the discussion. IMHO, of course.
The PDF is only available to CA members.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Boat Tax ?????

Identical facts to the ones in the other newspaper articles posted earlier in these threads, so must be the same source article?

Can we somehow get in touch with Tony Maxtead of Yacht Bigamist and exchange ideas or offer mutual help and support?

The other name is Peter Paulsen of Yacht Safety Service in TV

I don't go to TV now and the only other name I know of is Oliver who owns the chandlery there and seems to know everyone, but I don't have any kind of relationship with him.

Does anyone here know any of those people or anyone in TV who might help us find them?

 

[Grehan]

Re: Boat Tax ?????

have sent PM

 

[Anonymous]

Re: C A replies

As a CA member I do have that pdf. Obviously I wouldn't post details here as it is CA copyright. It is a well-written document that has evolved over several years but in the light of this discussion (these two threads) it is completely and utterly out of date.

No liveaboard would stay in Spain unless they had no alternative. It's madness. I was getting very twitchy by Christmas 2007 as the number of cases of interviews and embargoes was increasing monthly. So we left in Spring 2008 and are now in Italy.

 

[Plomong]

Re: C A replies

Lemain,

Are there any CONFIRMED reports about the application of the 30 days rule outside the Valencia autonomous region?

If none, we could be seeing a local application of something that others might just wish would go away.

Just look who currently governs that area. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Generally seem to try to cause trouble for t'others when they themselves are not in power, and with few if any scruples.

Having said that, I won't sleep well tonight. Knock knock.

Do we know if the 30 days rule is new in the 2007 law and was not in the 1992 law??

If it is new, I'd be more worried.

If not a new rule, I'd be inclined to think that having not applied it in 16 years means there is really no interest in being too heavy-handed about this matter. If also accompanied by spotty application outside the Valencia area, that would confirm my impressions.

Notwithstanding all that has been said up to now about the 30-day rule, the 183 days rule is a different kettle of fish, and far more justified and defensible, as I tried to outline in another of my earlier posts in this thread.

I've sent a PM with other information.

Plomong

 

[JamesFrance]

Re: C A replies

David, you must be able to visit Spain for 182 days in a calendar year with no problems. I still see no evidence at all that non residents are being targeted for re registration under the Spanish flag and that is when the ISDMT tax applies.

So we cannot find a modern legal basis for empty boats not having time off from import liability, but there is still this from a Spanish lawyer's site showing that a non resident can register Spanish without the tax.
http://www.nauticalegal.com/artics/Navegar_n163_p126.pdf

Yes you would have a problem in any EU country after 183 days of residence in a year as you would have liability for all taxes of that country.

Whether living aboard a British Ship makes you a resident is another matter.

 

[LadyJessie]

Re: Story repeats

[ QUOTE ]

Kerikey!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Good summation. The blind leading the blind.

I think this long thread has been an excellent example of the benefit of what I usually advice; in matters of expatriate taxation: seek professional advice. Your individual financial situation can not be assessed and valued on any web page. Assuming you will find it there is delusional. A liveaboard cruiser is always a very special case that is never covered in 'basic' tax rule presentations. Don't gamble your own money by believing anything you read here.

This is a very complicated field and it is constantly changing. Seek good advice before you take any action and disregard most (if not all) said on threads like these.

 

[JamesFrance]

Re: Story repeats

Ah well this is the problem. Advice from whom?