Is this document proof of VAT paid?

[Nauti-lass John]

Hi, I am nearing completion on buying a new to me boat (2003 Intermare 42 Flybridge in Greece) I have just been sent this ********
The current owner is Greek but the boat is registered under the Italian flag.
My question is if this 'Nota di trascrizione' would suffice as proof of VAT paid?
All opinions welcome.

 

[Spi D]

I would not accept this as proof as it doesn't state any amounts or the goods in question.


Dr. Google, FWIW, translates to:

IN FAVOUR OF:
- "Name and address"
AGAINST:
MERCANTILE LEASING SPA, based in Florence's Piazza della Liberta No. 13, in the person of C.F.:94004630482 Officer Rag. GIUS r Maurice, born in Florence II 02/04/1963 and electively domiciled there for buying and selling boats, C.F.:GSTMRZ 631304D612
ASKS
the transcript of the vessel sale and purchase certified by the lawyer. Rosanna Montano, Notary in Florence, dated 01/12/2006, rep.45982 and registered on 05/12/2006 to the Revenue Florence 1 to No. 4722, by
which is Soc. MERCANTILE LEASING SPA sells and transfers to Mr Name
who buys for number 18 carats, and to Mr. Name who buys for number 6 carats

 

[MapisM]

The short answer to your question is no, but that's also the answer to a question you didn't make, i.e. "should I worry?".
I'm afraid it's tricky to explain why, and I'm struggling typing on a mobile device ATM, but will revert asap.
In the meantime, you might consider removing the link from a public webpage, considering the personal data involved...

PS: ops, my latest suggestion was a minute late, looking at the previous reply...
And google translate is completely useless for understanding the implications of that doc, anyway.

 

[Nauti-lass John]

you might consider removing the link from a public webpage, considering the personal data involved...

Thanks for the heads up. I did consider this for sometime before posting. How else can I get advice if people can't view the document?

 

[Imperial One]

NO, as a Broker, I would not be happy that this document is proof of Vat payment.
If the vessel was owned under a lease scheme, as this suggests, the leasing company will almost certainly have reclaimed any VAT paid originally.

You need to see an Invoice from the leasing company to the current owners showing Vat charged on that sale. That would be a valid Vat payment document as long as it is the original!

Assuming the broker will send them to you as a scanned copy, you can always send copies of the ships docs to HMRC Marine Unit at Portsmouth and they will tell you if they would be happy or not with them. You will not get a written answer but certainly they are very helpful with guidance on the phone. At the end of the day HMRC and their couterparts around the EU are the guys you will need to satisfy so seek their advice.
It is free to do so after all.

 

[Spi D]

By masking sensitive information

 

[Nauti-lass John]

NO, as a Broker, I would not be happy that this document is proof of Vat payment.
If the vessel was owned under a lease scheme, as this suggests, the leasing company will almost certainly have reclaimed any VAT paid originally.

You need to see an Invoice from the leasing company to the current owners showing Vat charged on that sale. That would be a valid Vat payment document as long as it is the original!

Assuming the broker will send them to you as a scanned copy, you can always send copies of the ships docs to HMRC Marine Unit at Portsmouth and they will tell you if they would be happy or not with them. You will not get a written answer but certainly they are very helpful with guidance on the phone. At the end of the day HMRC and their couterparts around the EU are the guys you will need to satisfy so seek their advice.
It is free to do so after all.

Thank you, it is as I suspected. I have asked to see the invoice.

 

[Nauti-lass John]

By masking sensitive information

View attachment 56799

If I had access to more software I could have done that (if I spoke Italian).

 

[MapisM]

NO, as a Broker, I would not be happy that this document is proof of Vat payment.

That's because you aren't an IT broker.
If you would, you'd be more than happy with the boat papers, and you'd be surprised if someone would ask you anything else.
That's the reason why I said that the OP doesn't need to worry, and now that I'm back on a proper keyboard I can explain why.

First of all, just for sake of accuracy, I must specify that the doc which was posted, AS SUCH, isn't worth even the paper it's written on.
But it implies the following relevant things (with my comments on top, in italic):
1) Up to Dec 1st 2006, the boat was owned by a leasing company. Of course the leasing company recovered the VAT they paid upon purchase, but that's totally irrelevant in this context.
2) On Dec 1st 2006, the boat was sold by the leasing company to two private individuals (one with 3/4, and the other with 1/4 of ownership), and THIS is a VAT-table, unrecoverable transaction.
In fact, the price paid was 240 Eur +VAT. It's a nominal value of course, but that's because the leasing company already charged all the previous instalments, each with their own VAT.
3) Based on the request that the OP posted, the Genoa Coast Guard will have registered the transfer of property of the boat in their books, and also in the "Licenza di Navigazione" which is the official boat document. The reason why I said that this request AS SUCH is worth nothing is that what must be checked is the Licenza di Navigazione, that should show a registration consistent with this request.
4) These being the implications, the boat is now a used EU boat, sold from EU private individuals to another EU private individual. And this ain't a VAT-table transaction by any stretch of imagination.

All that said, we can debate till the hell freezes over, as indeed we do regularly in these pages, whether it's useful to have the previous VAT invoices and so forth.
But we always forget that such thing as a "VAT-paid" boat, simply does not exist.
Either a transaction is VAT-table or not, and this one positively is not, regardless of whether HMRC would like to see any other pieces of paper or not.
And whenever the OP would want to sell the boat to anyone else, that would still be a non VAT-table transaction.
Of course, the OP might wish to haggle on the price pretending that the papers are not good enough, but that's another matter altogether.

Btw, what is funny (sort of), in that it would still be a mistake to call her a "VAT-paid" boat.
If the OP in the future exports the boat outside the EU for long enough (3 years? Can't remember for sure), and then wants to sell her to a EU citizen in EU waters, that would be a VAT-table transaction again, even if the VAT had originally been paid by the leasing company (which recovered it) and by the private individuals who leased the boat (who didn't recover it).
So what?

 

[Whitelighter]

Because all the British institutions (brokers, BMF, banks and even our own beloved magazine) have a knobish obsession with having a VAT invoice - even though this doesn't prove vat was paid, or if it was that vat wasn't subsequently recovered (on export to the CIs for example)

It doesn't even prove vat was really charged - all it proves is the broker had a working printer hooked up to some form of document producing software.

I have a certificate from French customs stamped TVA paid, yet Lombard insisted I sign to say I was aware vat might not be paid because there was no original invoice.

Until the British establishment lose this obsession with worthless bits of paper the Europeans (with the rigid registration requirements) will continue to stare and scratch their head at the UK madness when trying to buy a boat

 

[Nauti-lass John]

That's because you aren't an IT broker.
If you would, you'd be more than happy with the boat papers, and you'd be surprised if someone would ask you anything else.
That's the reason why I said that the OP doesn't need to worry, and now that I'm back on a proper keyboard I can explain why.

First of all, just for sake of accuracy, I must specify that the doc which was posted, AS SUCH, isn't worth even the paper it's written on.
But it implies the following relevant things (with my comments on top, in italic):
1) Up to Dec 1st 2006, the boat was owned by a leasing company. Of course the leasing company recovered the VAT they paid upon purchase, but that's totally irrelevant in this context.
2) On Dec 1st 2006, the boat was sold by the leasing company to two private individuals (one with 3/4, and the other with 1/4 of ownership), and THIS is a VAT-table, unrecoverable transaction.
In fact, the price paid was 240 Eur +VAT. It's a nominal value of course, but that's because the leasing company already charged all the previous instalments, each with their own VAT.
3) Based on the request that the OP posted, the Genoa Coast Guard will have registered the transfer of property of the boat in their books, and also in the "Licenza di Navigazione" which is the official boat document. The reason why I said that this request AS SUCH is worth nothing is that what must be checked is the Licenza di Navigazione, that should show a registration consistent with this request.
4) These being the implications, the boat is now a used EU boat, sold from EU private individuals to another EU private individual. And this ain't a VAT-table transaction by any stretch of imagination.

All that said, we can debate till the hell freezes over, as indeed we do regularly in these pages, whether it's useful to have the previous VAT invoices and so forth.
But we always forget that such thing as a "VAT-paid" boat, simply does not exist.
Either a transaction is VAT-table or not, and this one positively is not, regardless of whether HMRC would like to see any other pieces of paper or not.
And whenever the OP would want to sell the boat to anyone else, that would still be a non VAT-table transaction.
Of course, the OP might wish to haggle on the price pretending that the papers are not good enough, but that's another matter altogether.

Btw, what is funny (sort of), in that it would still be a mistake to call her a "VAT-paid" boat.
If the OP in the future exports the boat outside the EU for long enough (3 years? Can't remember for sure), and then wants to sell her to a EU citizen in EU waters, that would be a VAT-table transaction again, even if the VAT had originally been paid by the leasing company (which recovered it) and by the private individuals who leased the boat (who didn't recover it).
So what?

+1

Thank you MapisM for a comprehensive explanation of that document. I am learning that VAT and the EU are not straight forward!
I have asked for a copy of the original invoice but I'm not sure if even that will show that the VAT was paid as opposed to implying it was paid.
Having already spent a not a small amount on flights, surveys etc I would be reluctant to start my search all over again.

 

[jfm]

If the OP in the future exports the boat outside the EU for long enough (3 years? Can't remember for sure), and then wants to sell her to a EU citizen in EU waters, that would be a VAT-table transaction again, even if the VAT had originally been paid by the leasing company (which recovered it) and by the private individuals who leased the boat (who didn't recover it).
So what?

I agree 99% of what you wrote but ref the above, no. The sale to the EU citizen is not a VATable transaction. The re-importation is the VATable transaction. ('Scuse the pedantry, which I fully admit!)

doesn't prove vat was paid, or if it was that vat wasn't subsequently recovered (on export to the CIs for example)

. There is no recovery of invoiced VAT arising from export to the CIs or anywhere else.

 

[MapisM]

I have asked for a copy of the original invoice but I'm not sure if even that will show that the VAT was paid as opposed to implying it was paid.

Well, I can assure you that what any VAT invoice prove is that VAT was CHARGED on a transaction.
No VAT invoice of any kind will ever prove that whoever issued it actually PAID such VAT, but if they didn't, obviously it would be a fraud, and that's their problem, not yours.

PS: I meant to say: if there's some other translation, or anything else I can help you with, just ask!

 

[MapisM]

I agree 99% of what you wrote but ref the above, no. The sale to the EU citizen is not a VATable transaction. The re-importation is the VATable transaction. ('Scuse the pedantry, which I fully admit!)

Well, I did say also "in EU waters", but I never mind pedantry when it's correct! :encouragement:

 

[Whitelighter]

I agree 99% of what you wrote but ref the above, no. The sale to the EU citizen is not a VATable transaction. The re-importation is the VATable transaction. ('Scuse the pedantry, which I fully admit!)

. There is no recovery of invoiced VAT arising from export to the CIs or anywhere else.

Oops, thought there was.

Let's just leave it at 'recovery of VAT' then

 

[jfm]

Yep if you stop it at "recovered" then ok. I agree with you that the whole UK approach to "vat paid" boats is nuts. Unfortunately, so long as buyers believe in "vat paid" status and brokers promote it (and think they know when VAT isn't and isn't due, by whom, and whether or not a VAT debt attaches to a boat, which of course they mostly don't) then it remains an issue and anyone buying a boat with imperfect paperwork faces not a VAT problem but a problem of not being able to sell it to a UK buyer (which may or may not matter of course). Anyway, we've all done that to death so no need to reply!

 

[Whitelighter]

I'd question wether you were ever going to sell an Intermare 42 (and I must be one of the few Brits who knows immediately what one is) to a Brit anyway.

When you are done with it some Italian or Frenchman is going to buy it in all likelihood

 

[jfm]

Yep completely. Your boat is the same and so your Fr reg history is perfect.

 

[Nauti-lass John]

I'd question wether you were ever going to sell an Intermare 42 (and I must be one of the few Brits who knows immediately what one is) to a Brit anyway.

When you are done with it some Italian or Frenchman is going to buy it in all likelihood

I'm a Brit and I'm trying to buy it :ambivalence:

For the uninitiated, the Intermare 42 Fly is a poor man's Azimut (same hull designer).

 

[Nauti-lass John]

Well, I can assure you that what any VAT invoice prove is that VAT was CHARGED on a transaction.
No VAT invoice of any kind will ever prove that whoever issued it actually PAID such VAT, but if they didn't, obviously it would be a fraud, and that's their problem, not yours.

PS: I meant to say: if there's some other translation, or anything else I can help you with, just ask!

Thanks MapsM, I may well take you up on that offer if I receive further documentation.