Is there any point in standing on...

[JumbleDuck]

Personally I keep well clear of fishing vessels at all times, and take any other lights and shapes at face value.

Almost me too - I keep clear at sea if there is any chance they could be fishing but assume that when I meet them entering or leaving a harbour that they are not fishing and will behave like normal power driven vessels. Which, in my experience, they do.

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, giving way to a vessel fishing is required under the rules. And that vessel will be showing cones. But it's not the cones that meant you had to give way, it's the fishing, even if you were only aware of the fishing because you noticed the cones. It may be a fine distinction, but it's there.

The fishing vessels I meet most often are small (~10m) potting boats. Their normal behaviour is to travel very quickly, from one string to the next, then move slowly round the pots before haring off again. I've never seen one of them showing a day mark, but the sensible and friendly plan of action seems to me to assume that they are not engage in fishing while doing 20kt on the plane and that they are engaged in fishing when stopped. Worrying about day marks would only confuse matters.

On a similar note, when I met a traditional fishing boat in the Sound of Jura a few weeks back, the trawling beams, slow speed, squatting stern and seagulls were a much better indication of what she was doing, and visible a lot further away, than anything which may or may not have been tied up in her rigging.

 

[Tony Cross]

I give way to vessel engaged in fishing even if they aren't showing the day mark - which none of the small boats I meet on the west coast do. Don't you?

Yes I do, but only if it's clear to me that they have nets, lines trawls etc. showing. As I said earlier the IRPCS does not require or expect me to be an expert in fishing gear and it's use, that's what the cones are for.

Your recent comment makes your point of view clear to me now...

The fishing vessels I meet most often are small (~10m) potting boats. Their normal behaviour is to travel very quickly, from one string to the next, then move slowly round the pots before haring off again. I've never seen one of them showing a day mark, but the sensible and friendly plan of action seems to me to assume that they are not engage in fishing while doing 20kt on the plane and that they are engaged in fishing when stopped. Worrying about day marks would only confuse matters.

On a similar note, when I met a traditional fishing boat in the Sound of Jura a few weeks back, the trawling beams, slow speed, squatting stern and seagulls were a much better indication of what she was doing, and visible a lot further away, than anything which may or may not have been tied up in her rigging.

I agree with what you are saying and would also use some of the visual clues you mention, but I don't know anywhere near as much about potting or trawling as you do. I have in the past found it quite difficult to see the trawl warps (as that what they're called?) extending off the stern of trawlers for example. Not knowing much about fishing, potting and trawling practices means that I have to rely on the IRPCS, so I do look for the shapes and lights unless it is abundantly clear to me what they're doing.

Does that bring us any closer together?

 

[fisherman]

Does that bring us any closer together?

Aww, come on guys, don't give up yet! My first post in 2005, all innocent, was a gentle request for motoring cones to be used.....That went down well.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Does that bring us any closer together?

I think it does. Shall we agree that cones are a very useful indication, but not the be-all and end-all, and that a bit of common sense, observation and courtesy helps resolve ambiguous situations must better than thumbing through a book of rules trying to work out the letter of the law?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Aww, come on guys, don't give up yet! My first post in 2005, all innocent, was a gentle request for motoring cones to be used.....That went down well.

Ouch. That's like going into the Lounge and asking "Can't we all just get along?". Hope the scars have healed.

 

[Tony Cross]

I think it does. Shall we agree that cones are a very useful indication, but not the be-all and end-all, and that a bit of common sense, observation and courtesy helps resolve ambiguous situations must better than thumbing through a book of rules trying to work out the letter of the law?

I can certainly agree that common sense, observation and courtesy are important, and I defer to your greater knowledge of what fishing vessels might be doing. But for me, if they're showing the cones I will give way. I think we'd best agree to differ on that one.

 

[BruceDanforth]

An angry fisherman came over to shoo me away from some nets the other weekend then started shouting that he'd been trying to call me on ch15. I shouted back that I was on ch 16. He said he'd not used that because it was the emergency channel. Why would I maintain a watch 0n 15? Some people don't make things easy for themselves.

Aww, come on guys, don't give up yet! My first post in 2005, all innocent, was a gentle request for motoring cones to be used.....That went down well.

 

[ProMariner]

Steam may give way to sail...

But fibreglass gives way to steal.

The crucial point, is not who is right, but who is left.

Best off just trying to miss all other boats. Our fuel is free, our time is our own, by definition a rag hanger is never really in a hurry.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Steam may give way to sail...

But fibreglass gives way to steal.

The crucial point, is not who is right, but who is left.

Best off just trying to miss all other boats. Our fuel is free, our time is our own, by definition a rag hanger is never really in a hurry.

That really is the biggest load of tosh that is oft repeated on these forums.

The real answer is to obey IRPCS - otherwise you get all sailors a bad name. No wonder watch keepers of ships wonder what some sailors are playing at...

 

[Mariner69]

The real answer is to obey IRPCS - otherwise you get all sailors a bad name. No wonder watch keepers of ships wonder what some sailors are playing at...

+1

 

[ProMariner]

I do understand, "stand on with caution", if a risk of collision exists. I just choose to ensure no risk of collision exists, by altering course long before the keep clear vessel pings me as a threat, if it is within my power. I am particularly alert to, in no particular order, jet skis, kayakers, sailing boats with fenders out, all boats with beer holders by helm stations, fishing vessels, coasters, deep sea merchantmen late at night, and novices. I never get confused or angry if a stand on vessel chooses to avoid me, early and clearly, as I never get angry if one of the above, as give way vessel, fails to take avoiding action to my satisfaction.

The opposite view, hold your course till you see the whites of their eyes? Seriously? I am the rabbit, the shipping lane is the motorway, and the HGV driver cares not a jot for the rabbit. If you have more to loose from the collision, etc.

 

[Lakesailor]

I can't find anything in the Highway code that says you have to drive forwards

Ah Highway Code. It's under "Reversing".

Reg 106 MV Con and Use Rges 1986 - OFFENCE -

A person shall not drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I do understand, "stand on with caution", if a risk of collision exists. I just choose to ensure no risk of collision exists, by altering course long before the keep clear vessel pings me as a threat, if it is within my power. I am particularly alert to, in no particular order, jet skis, kayakers, sailing boats with fenders out, all boats with beer holders by helm stations, fishing vessels, coasters, deep sea merchantmen late at night, and novices. I never get confused or angry if a stand on vessel chooses to avoid me, early and clearly, as I never get angry if one of the above, as give way vessel, fails to take avoiding action to my satisfaction.

The opposite view, hold your course till you see the whites of their eyes? Seriously? I am the rabbit, the shipping lane is the motorway, and the HGV driver cares not a jot for the rabbit. If you have more to loose from the collision, etc.

With respect, I suggest that as far as big ships at sea are concerned, unless you have AIS of a radar system with a rate gyro and a flux gate compass, you cannot assess whether they are on a collision course or not until you have stood on and monitored their bearing over some time. The bearing doesn't change much at first and its easy to think you are on a collision course when you are not. You claim that you just keep clear of everything. The reality from the bridge of a ship is that the watchkeeper can't make out what you are doing from your meandering course and the chances are that he/she has ALREADY altered course to avoid you. You then go and mess things up by altering yourself and he/she is left scratching their head as to what you are playing at.

You are also doing a huge disservice to the watchkeepers on major ships by suggesting that they don't care about you as a so called 'rabbit'. I've met a fair few professional watch keepers merchant and RN and I believe that without exception they would be deeply insulted by your suggestion. All the ones I have met are proud of their seamanship and are frustrated by the silly antics of many yachts weaving about the sea in the manner you seem to imply.

 

[ProMariner]

To sail boldly under the starboard bow of a rusty bulker on your port side, at 0300 in open sea, is an act of faith I have never had the balls to enact, even if I do have Class A AIS, a good radar cross signature, and good nav lights. I am doubtless guilty of eroding the common skill of watch keeping, by my readiness to chicken out early. Sorry.

 

[capnsensible]

I like fish.

Catching them is a complete bstard of a job.

I give fishermen my full respect.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You are also doing a huge disservice to the watchkeepers on major ships by suggesting that they don't care about you as a so called 'rabbit'. I've met a fair few and I believe that without exception they would be deeply insulted by your suggestion. All the ones I have met are proud of their seamanship and are frustrated by the silly antics of many yachts weaving about the sea in the manner you seem to imply.

A read through the MAID reports will alas show that some are not quite as assiduous. A small minority, though.

 

[john_morris_uk]

To sail boldly under the starboard bow of a rusty bulker on your port side, at 0300 in open sea, is an act of faith I have never had the balls to enact, even if I do have Class A AIS, a good radar cross signature, and good nav lights. I am doubtless guilty of eroding the common skill of watch keeping, by my readiness to chicken out early. Sorry.

Sailing close under the bow of anything is foolish and contrary to IRPCS. I don't understand your point.

 

[fisherman]

Ah Highway Code. It's under "Reversing".

Reg 106 MV Con and Use Rges 1986 - OFFENCE -

A person shall not drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road.

Damn.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A read through the MAID reports will alas show that some are not quite as assiduous. A small minority, though.

I too read the MAIB reports. That's why one 'stands on with caution..' 90+% of the time you are fine - just watch out for the odd one or two who are in the toilet at the back of the bridge or who are busy doing their paperwork etc. (Might be the same thing?)