Is there any point in standing on...

[fisherman]

There are all sorts of idiots right across the rectum. I was creeping, towing a grapnel for lost gear. Not nets lines or trawl but I suppose 'fishing gear'. Going round in a small circle to stbd, yacht approaching under power, no sails up, and he is on a collision course for the western segment of my circle, so I slow a bit to make sure I'm on the eastern segment when he arrives but just then the creep comes fast and I spin round in the tide. Lots of black smoke from me for a second and a cheery wave from him. I wasn't too worried because with only the creep over I'm reasonably under command, but cannot go to port easily.
Small gaffer, all sail set, ghosting along I judge he has not sufficient way to avoid me so I avoid him even though I'm shooting pots, they go in slightly the wrong place, then I see the exhaust and propwash as he passes. Just annoying, that's all. Last week a FV was berated on Ch 16 by a motorsailing yacht who had tried his best to collide although the FV was hauling pots. I was nearly T-boned while hauling pots by a 60ft or so ketch with no one on deck until I blew the hooter. Just to point out it's not all one way.
As for indications that fishing is taking place, a lot of the time I look as though I'm making 4 or so knots against the tide, I'm actually hauling pots across the tide, I have 6 pots on 120fm of rope off the bottom, it's a lot of strain, if I stop hauling or alter course the gear will come fast as it starts to drag and me and the crew are working flat out to stop that happening. A trawler is constrained because he has to stick to the track he follows between snags, if he alters or stops he also will come fast.
I get a bit fed up with the constant assertions that ALL fishermen are gung-ho cowboys with limited seamanship skills, who, as one poster once suggested, deserve to drown at the first opportunity. Statistically, we spend a lot of time at sea so the opportunities for mistakes are bound to be more, and there are folk, particularly on here, who constantly look for the chance to be affronted. We all make mistakes, as the Dalek said, climbing off the dustbin.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think its your turn to find the rule that says that you can ignore day shapes...

Day shapes are there to help decide in what category another vessel falls, but it's the category which determines the give way / stand on rules, not the day shapes.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So, in the case of fishing vessels or trawlers, you don't need to know whether they are fishing or trawling, if they are showing the appropriate lights or shapes then for the purposes of the IRPCS they are fishing or trawling.

Where in the IRPCS do you think it says that?

 

[DJE]

It's got nothing at all to do with cats and legs, the shapes and lights are there to tell you that this is a vessel engaged in trawling or fishing. Period.

So how do you react to a yacht at night who is showing green over white over green because some numpty has switched on the tricolour as well as the deck level lights and steaming light? - Quite a common sight in the Solent but I doubt whether many of them are trawling.

 

[fisherman]

So how do you react to a yacht at night who is showing green over white over green because some numpty has switched on the tricolour as well as the deck level lights and steaming light? - Quite a common sight in the Solent but I doubt whether many of them are trawling.

You ram it, of course. Or........you could avoid it. Bit difficult that one.

 

[john_morris_uk]

There are all sorts of idiots right across the rectum. I was creeping, towing a grapnel for lost gear. Not nets lines or trawl but I suppose 'fishing gear'. Going round in a small circle to stbd, yacht approaching under power, no sails up, and he is on a collision course for the western segment of my circle, so I slow a bit to make sure I'm on the eastern segment when he arrives but just then the creep comes fast and I spin round in the tide. Lots of black smoke from me for a second and a cheery wave from him. I wasn't too worried because with only the creep over I'm reasonably under command, but cannot go to port easily.
Small gaffer, all sail set, ghosting along I judge he has not sufficient way to avoid me so I avoid him even though I'm shooting pots, they go in slightly the wrong place, then I see the exhaust and propwash as he passes. Just annoying, that's all. Last week a FV was berated on Ch 16 by a motorsailing yacht who had tried his best to collide although the FV was hauling pots. I was nearly T-boned while hauling pots by a 60ft or so ketch with no one on deck until I blew the hooter. Just to point out it's not all one way.
As for indications that fishing is taking place, a lot of the time I look as though I'm making 4 or so knots against the tide, I'm actually hauling pots across the tide, I have 6 pots on 120fm of rope off the bottom, it's a lot of strain, if I stop hauling or alter course the gear will come fast as it starts to drag and me and the crew are working flat out to stop that happening. A trawler is constrained because he has to stick to the track he follows between snags, if he alters or stops he also will come fast.
I get a bit fed up with the constant assertions that ALL fishermen are gung-ho cowboys with limited seamanship skills, who, as one poster once suggested, deserve to drown at the first opportunity. Statistically, we spend a lot of time at sea so the opportunities for mistakes are bound to be more, and there are folk, particularly on here, who constantly look for the chance to be affronted. We all make mistakes, as the Dalek said, climbing off the dustbin.

I'm always interested in your explanations and you go some way to explain the sometimes contrary paths that fishing boats adopt when you are closing with them. As I've already said, I've generally found fishermen to be quite capable of complying with IRPCS but I approach with caution for all the reasons you give in your explanation. If they are working their gear then they have every right to expect me to keep clear of them.

Its the ones who are on auto-pilot cleaning and stowing gear, with two crew out the back and no-one in the wheelhouse who give fishing boats a bad name however I agree that yachts are quite capable of doing the same thing. I have a friend who refuses to allow crew to read when his boat is on autopilot. I am more pragmatic and have a timer to remind me to look up every couple of minutes.

 

[Tony Cross]

Day shapes are there to help decide in what category another vessel falls, but it's the category which determines the give way / stand on rules, not the day shapes.

Where does it say that in the IRPCS then?

As for this comment of mine...

So, in the case of fishing vessels or trawlers, you don't need to know whether they are fishing or trawling, if they are showing the appropriate lights or shapes then for the purposes of the IRPCS they are fishing or trawling.

...that has been explained to you before, rule 3 defines the vessels and rule 26 defines the dayshapes that vessels engaged in fishing must show.

If, as you seem to want, we had to determine whether a vessel was actually in the process of fishing or trawling there would be all sorts of misunderstandings when a non-fishing person (like me) doesn't spot the appropriate signs and so doesn't realise that a vessel is actually in the act of fishing. The dayshapes are there to avoid these misunderstandings, it is not necessary to observe the vessel to see whether they are actually fishing, the presence of the dayshapes (as the IRPCS makes very clear) tells you (and me) that they are "engaged in fishing", and that's all you need to know.

I'm puzzled as to why you seem so determined to deny that the fishing dayshape alone requires a sailing vessel to give way and that we're supposed to look and see whether they have lines, trawls or nets out instead. That is quite obviously a recipe for disaster.

 

[Lakesailor]

Where is TB when the opportunity occurs?

 

[onesea]

Day shapes are there to help decide in what category another vessel falls, but it's the category which determines the give way / stand on rules, not the day shapes.

Where in the IRPCS do you think it says that?

I think its about time you started answering your own questions and not backing it up... If not just be quite.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Where does it say that in the IRPCS then?

Rule 18, obviously. Which says, for example that a sailing vessel must give way to a vessel engaged in fishing, which term is defined in Rule 3. Rule 18 does NOT say that a sailing vessel gives way to a vessel displaying the fishing daymarks or lights.

...that has been explained to you before, rule 3 defines the vessels and rule 26 defines the dayshapes that vessels engaged in fishing must show.

Yes, that's my point.

If, as you seem to want, we had to determine whether a vessel was actually in the process of fishing or trawling

It's not what I want. It's what the IRPCS want.

I'm puzzled as to why you seem so determined to deny that the fishing dayshape alone requires a sailing vessel to give way and that we're supposed to look and see whether they have lines, trawls or nets out instead. That is quite obviously a recipe for disaster.

The IRPCS have to be consistently applied or they don't make sense. The idea of ploughing on towards a vessel obviously engaged in fishing, and therefore clearly covered by Rule 18, just because you can't see a particular daymark or light combination is absurd and dangerous.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think its about time you started answering your own questions and not backing it up... If not just be quite.

If I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions. Is it unreasonable to ask people to support with evidence claims that the IRPCS say something?

 

[onesea]

If I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking the questions. Is it unreasonable to ask people to support with evidence claims that the IRPCS say something?

Maybe you should try reading them yourself.

What your saying is you know more about a vessels operations than they do? As a simple passer by lets face it to the other vessel that's all you are, you know more about there status than they do?

 

[fisherman]

I can't find anything in the Highway code that says you have to drive forwards

 

[Tony Cross]

The IRPCS have to be consistently applied or they don't make sense. The idea of ploughing on towards a vessel obviously engaged in fishing, and therefore clearly covered by Rule 18, just because you can't see a particular daymark or light combination is absurd and dangerous.

Now we're back to cats and legs. The IRPCS has nothing to say about vessels that fail to show the appropriate dayshape. ALL of the rules are required to be complied with, you can't pick and choose which ones you think are important.

In any case your example is clearly covered by rule 2.

 

[prv]

I'll just stick my nose in briefly, to say that JumbleDuck is quite correct in terms of strict logic. The rules say that sailing boats must steer clear of boats fishing, and they say that boats fishing must show cones; they do not say that sailing boats must steer clear of boats showing cones. To disagree with this is a simple failure of reading comprehension and basic logic.

This is a separate question from how one ought to apply the rules. Clearly one vessel cannot reliably know whether another is actually fishing, or actually restricted in its ability to manoeuvre, or whatever - so it makes sense to base your actions on the shapes they are showing, not trying to second-guess them.

The difference between these two aspects of the same question is, I think, why both "sides" in this thread are yelling at each other. One is looking at a piece of paper and (rightly) saying "but it clearly says this! How can you imagine it says anything else!?" - and the other is imagining themselves at sea and (rightly) saying "it would be madness to do that! How can you possibly suggest behaving that way!?". They're both correct within their own frames of reference.

Personally I keep well clear of fishing vessels at all times, and take any other lights and shapes at face value.

Pete

 

[Tony Cross]

I'll just stick my nose in briefly, to say that JumbleDuck is quite correct in terms of strict logic. The rules say that sailing boats must steer clear of boats fishing, and they say that boats fishing must show cones; they do not say that sailing boats must steer clear of boats showing cones. To disagree with this is a simple failure of reading comprehension and basic logic.

I hope I'm not shouting.

What you say is true, however as I pointed out earlier all of the IRPCS rules apply all of the time, thus all vessels engaged in fishing must show the correct dayshape. So that giving way to any vessel showing cones is required under the rules. Anything less is, as I also said earlier, a recipe for disaster.

 

[prv]

So that giving way to any vessel showing cones is required under the rules.

No, giving way to a vessel fishing is required under the rules. And that vessel will be showing cones. But it's not the cones that meant you had to give way, it's the fishing, even if you were only aware of the fishing because you noticed the cones. It may be a fine distinction, but it's there.

Anything less is, as I also said earlier, a recipe for disaster.

There's the difference I mentioned, again - the difference between the written logic and the real world. Disasters happen in the real world, not the written, logical one.

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

What your saying is you know more about a vessels operations than they do? As a simple passer by lets face it to the other vessel that's all you are, you know more about there status than they do?

I give way to vessel engaged in fishing even if they aren't showing the day mark - which none of the small boats I meet on the west coast do. Don't you?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Now we're back to cats and legs. The IRPCS has nothing to say about vessels that fail to show the appropriate dayshape. ALL of the rules are required to be complied with, you can't pick and choose which ones you think are important..

I'm glad we agree at last. Rule 18 says that sailing vessels give way to vessels engaged in fishing, so sailing vessels should give way to vessel engaged in fishing and not invent a bizarre new rule that vessels aren't fishing unless they're showing the day mark. As you say, the IRPCS says nothing about what to do in that case, because it is already fully covered by Rule 18.

 

[Woodlouse]

So how do you react to a yacht at night who is showing green over white over green because some numpty has switched on the tricolour as well as the deck level lights and steaming light? - Quite a common sight in the Solent but I doubt whether many of them are trawling.

As well as combinations of lights there is also the spacing of the lights to take into account as set down by the rules. A green over white, with the green at the mast head and the white 10 metres below at the first spreaders does not indicate a boat engaged in trawling since to do so they have to be something like 600mm to 1 metre apart.