Is there any point in standing on...

[JumbleDuck]

Certainly not, you must respond to what you see at face value, whether it's a FV with permanent day shape or yacht with no cone. You will be held equally culpable in the event of a collision, right or wrong.

And to what do we respond if we see a boat which is behaving inconsistently with her day mark. Would you say, for example, that we ought not to give way to a fishing boat down at the stern, nets over and pulling hard if she happens not to have a couple of cones up?

Please quote precisely which rule overrides 3(d) in this case.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Facts of this case vessel was showing fishing shapes, you shall keep out of his way.

Which rule do you think says that?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Boats permanently 'fishing' are a problem and policing of the day shapes seems to be poor or non-existent, but under the ColRegs you still have to take their word for it even if you think they're lying.

Same question. Which IRPCS rule says that yachts give way to vessels displaying fishing shapes, regardless of whether they are fishing or not?

On the whole I try to keep out of the way on the basis that (a) if they are fishing I have to and (b) if they aren't fishing they probably won't give way, even if they are keeping a lookout.

 

[Woodlouse]

I've certainly seen some semi-permanently shackled in place, but I guess they would have been removable for inspections.

Pete

Quite, you see them with their shapes rigged in all manner of ways and the fishing fraternity at large is pretty poor at taking them down. But that shouldn't be confused with being unable to take them down.

 

[Woodlouse]

Same question. Which IRPCS rule says that yachts give way to vessels displaying fishing shapes, regardless of whether they are fishing or not?

None. But would you be happy arguing that in court? If you see a boat with the shapes that declare them to be restricted/fishing/constrained/NUC etc then you really have to treat them as such even if you know they're not because if you end up colliding then they might not be honest enough to admit that they were in the wrong.

 

[JumbleDuck]

None. But would you be happy arguing that in court? If you see a boat with the shapes that declare them to be restricted/fishing/constrained/NUC etc then you really have to treat them as such even if you know they're not because if you end up colliding then they might not be honest enough to admit that they were in the wrong.

Ah ha. So the trick is to hoist a cylinder as soon as I see the double cones, then they have to keep clear of me and won't dare argue it in court.

 

[Woodlouse]

Ah ha. So the trick is to hoist a cylinder as soon as I see the double cones, then they have to keep clear of me and won't dare argue it in court.

Probably best to hoist two black balls and go below.

 

[lpdsn]

Same question. Which IRPCS rule says that yachts give way to vessels displaying fishing shapes, regardless of whether they are fishing or not?

On the whole I try to keep out of the way on the basis that (a) if they are fishing I have to and (b) if they aren't fishing they probably won't give way, even if they are keeping a lookout.

On the other hand, which IRPCS rule says that it is up to the other vessel to say whether they are fishing or not?
The fishing cones, or equivalent lights, are the only definitive way of recognising a fishing vessel mentioned in the IRPCS.

 

[JumbleDuck]

On the other hand, which IRPCS rule says that it is up to the other vessel to say whether they are fishing or not?

My point exactly.

 

[lpdsn]

My point exactly.

I'm glad you know more about it than the fishermen then.

 

[fisherman]

And to what do we respond if we see a boat which is behaving inconsistently with her day mark. Would you say, for example, that we ought not to give way to a fishing boat down at the stern, nets over and pulling hard if she happens not to have a couple of cones up?

Please quote precisely which rule overrides 3(d) in this case.

As I said, respond to what you see, in this case 'a fishing boat down at the stern, nets over and pulling hard' (even if he happens not to have cones up).

The rule which overrides all other is that 'it is incumbent upon the master of any vessel to take appropriate action to avoid a collision' (or words to that effect), and that supercedes any lack of signals or correct action on the part of the other vessel.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The dayshape and lights are there purely to assist you in identifying whether or not the vessel is engaged in fishing. If the vessel is actually fishing but not showing a diamond she's still engaged in fishing and should be treated as such. The fact that the skipper of the fishing boat has contradicted Rule 26 would no doubt be taken into mitigation in the subsequent inquiry but she was the stand-on vessel if you were sailing, AOTBE.

Likewise, if a power-driven vessel isn't engaged in fishing but is showing the dayshape and you are in a sailing boat then, again AOTBE (e.g you aren't overtaking) then you are the stand-on vessel and your insurers may well take this into account, at least when pursuing the insurers of the fishing vessel. Perhaps not when calculating your premium next year though...

http://www.collisionregs.com/MSN1781.pdf

Rule 3 - General definitions

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.​

Rule 26 - Fishing Vessels

(a) A vessel engaged in fishing, whether underway or at anchor, shall exhibit only the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

(b) A vessel when engaged in trawling, by which is meant the dragging through the water of a dredge net or other apparatus used as a fishing appliance, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being green and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with their apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) a masthead light abaft of and higher than the all-round green light; a vessel of less than 50 metres in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a stern light.
​

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing, other than trawling, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) when there is outlying gear extending more than 150 metres horizontally from the vessel, an all- round white light or a cone apex upwards in the direction of the gear;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.​

(d) The additional signals described in Annex II to these Regulations apply to a vessel engaged in fishing in close proximity to other vessels engaged in fishing.

(e) A vessel when not engaged in fishing shall not exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in this Rule, but only those prescribed for a vessel of her length.​

Rule 2 is an interesting one as well:

Rule 2 - Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.​

In other words:

(a) Don't take these rules to mean you don't have to behave sensibly as well.

(b) If the only way you can stay out of immediate danger is by breaking the rules then that's OK.

Rules 5, 6, 7 and 8 are always worth a read as well...

 

[lpdsn]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The dayshape and lights are there purely to assist you in identifying whether or not the vessel is engaged in fishing. If the vessel is actually fishing but not showing a diamond she's still engaged in fishing and should be treated as such. The fact that the skipper of the fishing boat has contradicted Rule 26 would no doubt be taken into mitigation in the subsequent inquiry but she was the stand-on vessel if you were sailing, AOTBE.

Likewise, if a power-driven vessel isn't engaged in fishing but is showing the dayshape and you are in a sailing boat then, again AOTBE (e.g you aren't overtaking) then you are the stand-on vessel and your insurers may well take this into account, at least when pursuing the insurers of the fishing vessel. Perhaps not when calculating your premium next year though...

http://www.collisionregs.com/MSN1781.pdf

Rule 3 - General definitions

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.​

Rule 26 - Fishing Vessels

(a) A vessel engaged in fishing, whether underway or at anchor, shall exhibit only the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

(b) A vessel when engaged in trawling, by which is meant the dragging through the water of a dredge net or other apparatus used as a fishing appliance, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being green and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with their apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) a masthead light abaft of and higher than the all-round green light; a vessel of less than 50 metres in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a stern light.
​

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing, other than trawling, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) when there is outlying gear extending more than 150 metres horizontally from the vessel, an all- round white light or a cone apex upwards in the direction of the gear;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.​

(d) The additional signals described in Annex II to these Regulations apply to a vessel engaged in fishing in close proximity to other vessels engaged in fishing.

(e) A vessel when not engaged in fishing shall not exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in this Rule, but only those prescribed for a vessel of her length.​

Rule 2 is an interesting one as well:

Rule 2 - Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.​

In other words:

(a) Don't take these rules to mean you don't have to behave sensibly as well.

(b) If the only way you can stay out of immediate danger is by breaking the rules then that's OK.

Rules 5, 6, 7 and 8 are always worth a read as well...

What's other fishing apparatus and how do you guarantee that it is not being used when the fishing vessel is displaying a double cone?

 

[Chalker]

Q. "What course is that fishing boat on?"

A. "A collision course. If it not on one now it will be any minute!"

 

[grumpy_o_g]

What's other fishing apparatus and how do you guarantee that it is not being used when the fishing vessel is displaying a double cone?

For about £700 an hour I can give you my completely non-professional opinion with absolutely no guarantee I'm right... I'll give you the answer answer to your second question as a freebie as I'm sure you already know it - you can't guarantee it.

 

[Chalker]

If I'm sailing an AWB and flying fishing boat signals, what would you do in the same circumstances as the OP question?

 

[lpdsn]

For about £700 an hour I can give you my completely non-professional opinion with absolutely no guarantee I'm right... I'll give you the answer answer to your second question as a freebie as I'm sure you already know it - you can't guarantee it.

No need for that, all you have to do is stand one to the fishing vessel because you know best. Best of luck.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

No need for that, all you have to do is stand one to the fishing vessel because you know best. Best of luck.

Indeed. Hence my references to the subsequent inquiry and the insurers. At the end of the day the only cut and dried thing in IRCPS is that it's everyone's responsibility to try and avoid colliding with someone else.

 

[onesea]

Which rule do you think says that?

Responsibilities between vessels...

Same question. Which IRPCS rule says that yachts give way to vessels displaying fishing shapes, regardless of whether they are fishing or not?

I think its your turn to find the rule that says that you can ignore day shapes...

Ah ha. So the trick is to hoist a cylinder as soon as I see the double cones, then they have to keep clear of me and won't dare argue it in court.

No you hoist cylinder have collision and then a judge will decide in court, if you ended up there. Most at sea follow the rule of the road or at least don't go round willingly having collisions... Although I suspect you will become well known to the local harbour masters as they ask you WTF you are doing...

An AWB flying showing a cylinder I think most will form an opinion of the skipper "prick"(to quote a recent post) and for that reason alone keep out of his way...

I would suspect this includes fishermen to, if they see the shape or boat of course.

If I'm sailing an AWB and flying fishing boat signals, what would you do in the same circumstances as the OP question?

An AWB flying showing a showing fishing boat signals? again every one will form an opinion of the skipper "prick"(to quote a recent post) and for that reason alone keep out of his way...

The practice of ordinary seamen...

 

[Tony Cross]

What a lot of barrack-room lawyers we have on here. The IRPCS are very clear, the lights and day-shapes are there to indicate the the vessel is a "special case". So, in the case of fishing vessels or trawlers, you don't need to know whether they are fishing or trawling, if they are showing the appropriate lights or shapes then for the purposes of the IRPCS they are fishing or trawling. The fact that some fishing boats and trawlers leave the day shapes up all the time is bad practice but is of no consequence when applying the rules.

It's got nothing at all to do with cats and legs, the shapes and lights are there to tell you that this is a vessel engaged in trawling or fishing. Period.