Is there any point in standing on...

[Richard10002]

The rules make it quite clear that, even if you are the "stand on" vessel, as soon as it becomes clear that a collision cannot be avoided by the actions of the give way vessel alone, you are obliged to take action to avoid a collision.

If the OP has decided that he is the stand on vessel, he must stand on. If the situation is such that he decides that he was wrong, (e.g. The other boat is a fishing vessel), he becomes the give way vessel, and must give way. If he remains convinced that he is the stand on vessel, but a collision cannot be avoided by the other vessels actions alone, he must take action.

I could suggest that, if you are close enough to be reasonably sure that there is no one at the wheel of the other vessel, you are in the region where actions of the other vessel won't be enough to avoid a collision. The things that make you "reasonably sure" are for you to decide. Two crew dealing with nets, and an erratic course, might be sufficient. Add fishing shapes and/or lights, merely serve to add fuel, whether actually fishing or not.

So... Whatever the case with the other vessel in the OP, the rules are fairly clear as to what can/should be done.

 

[colvic987]

I am always cautious with any vessel who may, or may not, be fishing at any time and always give them a wide berth.

I'm agreeing with camellia, we keep our boats all polished and seaworthy, I would hate to get a scrap down the gelcoat, just because I decided to be really pedantic with the colregs and try to push the rules of the sea, just to make a point, which would most probably end up coming off in a worst situation and a bucket of stinking fish scraps dumped into the cockpit with a few descriptive words chucked in with the disruption which persues, I would rather just adjust course and nip around the stern and carry on my way....

but then there are plenty of you who would disagree............

 

[Sandy]

This is always worth a visit

 

[Woodlouse]

Can I report all the fishing boats tied up in harbour that are showing "engaged in fishing" symbols - welded to the mast?

To the OP - don't get in the way: they are working hard to earn a living in a tough trade.

You can report all you like. It's unlikely to be an accurate report though. Fishing vessels need to be inspected regularly for their coding and they will not be passed if their shapes are welded in place. They might not get taken down, but they will not be immovable.

I think the 'fact' that fishing boats have their shapes welded on stems from when a fishing boat used to have a basket in the rigging to show that it was engaged in fishing. It was (and still is occasionally) common to see a steel shopping basket welded to the mast. Sometimes they'd have a whole trolley. Since it has no meaning under the Colregs though it doesn't matter how it's fixed.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I'm agreeing with camellia, we keep our boats all polished and seaworthy, I would hate to get a scrap down the gelcoat, just because I decided to be really pedantic with the colregs and try to push the rules of the sea, just to make a point, which would most probably end up coming off in a worst situation and a bucket of stinking fish scraps dumped into the cockpit with a few descriptive words chucked in with the disruption which persues, I would rather just adjust course and nip around the stern and carry on my way....

but then there are plenty of you who would disagree............

Since when did 'Stand on if you are the stand on vessel' equate to 'stand on until the other vessel hits you and scrapes your gell-coat'?

The rules REQUIRE the stand on vessel to stand on, and then if it becomes apparent that the give way vessel is not giving way you take action to avoid collision. I don't know what he confusion is over this basic application of IRPCS? In practice I am always wary of fishing vessels, but I also know that many fishermen comply with the IRPCS and give you a friendly wave when you give way to them or they give way to you as a sailing vessel or as appropriate. Some are bullies and ought to have their tickets taken away.

The one that REALLY annoyed me was the sports fisherman with kites out (they allow you to troll extra lines wide out to either side of the boat) who refused to give way to me when I was sailing a 67 foot hard on the wind off Florida Keys. The definition of a fishing vessel is 'one hampered by his gear'. Trolling lines out of the back and trolling lines with kites does not make you a 'fishing vessel' under IRPCS and it doesn't stop you altering course a few degrees to keep clear of a 'largish' sailing vessel. (He had no shapes up either) I was VERY CROSS with him at the time, but I altered course and did nothing; life's too short to make anything of it...

 

[DanTribe]

It must be such a comfort to know that you are absolutely in the right as you disapear under the bows of a trawler

 

[Richard10002]

It must be such a comfort to know that you are absolutely in the right as you disapear under the bows of a trawler

Wink noted but if you disappear under the bows of a trawler, you are partly to blame, and therefore not absolutely in the right.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It must be such a comfort to know that you are absolutely in the right as you disapear under the bows of a trawler

I don't understand your post - with or without the wink. Which part of 'having stood on as required, and it becoming obvious that the other vessel isn't going to comply with the rules, you take avoiding action (in compliance with the rules at this stage)' isn't clear? I paraphrase what I said in my post....

As Richard says, if you are disappearing under the bows of a trawler, you haven't complied with the rules.

As I also said earlier, who says that standing on means standing on until you scrape your gell-coat?

So to the OP, yes it is always worth standing on if you are the stand on vessel - but standing on doesn't absolve you from avoiding collision.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Whilst not wishing to turn this into another colregs thread, I think you are wrong here. Rule 26 says (and I'm précising here) "A vessel engaged in trawling (or fishing) shall exhibit....two cones one above the other". Therefore any vessel showing the two cones IS fishing according to the colregs, regardless of what you might think.

A cat has four legs. Therefore any animal with four legs is a cat, regardless of what you might think.

 

[JumbleDuck]

To the OP - don't get in the way: they are working hard to earn a living in a tough trade.

What's earning a living got to do with it? Supposing the OP had been a charter skipper, would that have made a difference?

 

[lw395]

When there is no one in the wheelhouse of the other vessel?


About 0.5 nm SW of Penlee Point on Friday

Maybe he is relying on you having a radar reflector as per the rules, which will trigger his alarm setting?
In general, it takes two to crash, it's not like he is going fast in bad vis.

Live and let live, or do you never leave the deck to put the kettle on etc?

 

[JumbleDuck]

You can report all you like. It's unlikely to be an accurate report though. Fishing vessels need to be inspected regularly for their coding and they will not be passed if their shapes are welded in place. They might not get taken down, but they will not be immovable.

The most common day shape on fishing boats here (Scotland) seems to be a tubular net, tied in the middle to make two cones and hoisted permanently up the forestay. Well, perhaps they take it down for inspections.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Any boat which has a day mark permanently rigged and resembles what might be described as a 'fishing boat' adds a whole new dimension to the IRPCS. Because if we are to start treating such vessels always as stand on, it opens up a whole new interpretation of the rules.

 

[Sans Bateau]

A cat has four legs. Therefore any animal with four legs is a cat, regardless of what you might think.

Agreed.

 

[Dirk.Watson]

No

 

[fisherman]

Any boat which has a day mark permanently rigged and resembles what might be described as a 'fishing boat' adds a whole new dimension to the IRPCS. Because if we are to start treating such vessels always as stand on, it opens up a whole new interpretation of the rules.

Certainly not, you must respond to what you see at face value, whether it's a FV with permanent day shape or yacht with no cone. You will be held equally culpable in the event of a collision, right or wrong.

 

[onesea]

No man will have a long or happy life, if he expects a fishing boat to be paying attention to anyone but himself. Fisherman are the only sea users for whom seamanship is not the most valued asset.

It does not make them bad people, is just the current standard of their industry. I still like eating fish, and will miss the colour they provide once they have finished catching everything that swims.

IMHO The best post of the thread.

Facts of this case vessel was showing fishing shapes, you shall keep out of his way.

As for all those that start quoting the you must standon stuff...

There are times and places for everything sometimes discretion is the better part of valor...

There are many times when I have altered as stand on vessel to ease the situation for the other vessel, frequently receiving a real wave of thanks. I was always taught and believe its the ordinary practice of seamen.

 

[prv]

Fishing vessels need to be inspected regularly for their coding and they will not be passed if their shapes are welded in place. They might not get taken down, but they will not be immovable.

I've certainly seen some semi-permanently shackled in place, but I guess they would have been removable for inspections.

Pete

 

[lpdsn]

Any boat which has a day mark permanently rigged and resembles what might be described as a 'fishing boat' adds a whole new dimension to the IRPCS. Because if we are to start treating such vessels always as stand on, it opens up a whole new interpretation of the rules.

So which other days shapes and lights do you think you can safely ignore when you feel like it?

Boats permanently 'fishing' are a problem and policing of the day shapes seems to be poor or non-existent, but under the ColRegs you still have to take their word for it even if you think they're lying. Day shapes apart, I generally find fishing vessels reasonably well behaved and reasonably knowledgeable of the ColRegs, certainly better than the average yottie (I wonder if there's a fisherman's forum somewhere where they debate wierd and wonderful interpretations of the IRPCS like here). Most of the time I find that if a trawler is genuinely on passage they'll give way early enough. If I think the aren't fishing I'll leave it a bit later, but not too late by any means, before altering course and I usually find they respond.

I'll admit that when I was less experienced I sometimes though they were out to get me, but that's before I understood that for a vessel fishing, standing on can involve all the manouvres they feel are necessary for their fishing, even if it means you have to alter course again to avoid them.

 

[Sans Bateau]

So which other days shapes and lights do you think you can safely ignore when you feel like it?

None, but what I am suggesting is that perhaps (no, most likely) the fishing boats have their day shapes permanently mounted to take advantage of the IRPCS and bully their way, because with that day shape they take precedence over just about everyone else. So why shouldnt matey boy from the mobo forum string up a 'fishing' day shape on his Princess to overrule the power/sail rule? I'm not suggesting for one moment that anyone should ignore day shapes though.