Is there a Pageant owner with a tape measure out there?

I read that about the sheets going down the well, all I can say is it was either seriously wild with everything going everywhere or it's an oddly designed well.

I've sailed a boat with a well since 1978 and never lost anything down it, then it has a decent size trunking / front ( with the cockpit drains into it through closeable slots ), not flush with the cockpit sole like some which I can imagine might lead to problems.

All a matter of cockpit hygiene too; on racing dinghies in windy conditions it's not unusual to find the halliard ends going out through the self bailers...
 
Iain C said:
Dylan you keep saying that you are concerned about an inboard engine being a magnet for lobster pots...however I was reading somewhere the other day about someone with a well who dropped sheets etc down it, causing the same issue...
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I agree that dropping a sheet down the hole is possible - but I have breen sailing for 18 months with a well and not5hing has gone down it

...... yet



I am a disciplined sailor and the sheets are well looked after


and if a rope does get around the prop - as happened at Brough where they have ropes all over the shop - then I can lift the outboard and free it

going up the Trent and the Ouse clearing weed and debris from the prop was a two or three times a day game

when I took the slug up the Nene then I used the outboard to avoid getting debris wrapped around the inboard prop

the lobster pot game with the slug inboard has happened twice and then the only solution is to run the boat ashore to clear the prop and repair the damage


Ganter - thanks for doing the meaurements for me - very good of you -

thanks for making the outboard on the stern suggestion - I think that 6hp on a bracket is viable - 10hp is more of a challenge

there are two possibles on the Pageant front

- one has an jiggered engine - in which case I would go the well route

- the other has an inboard that is on unknown provenance and is merely a bit doubtful

- in which case I would just bung a bracket on the back and carry the Tohatsu around.

I am still holding up my faith on the Centaur front though

D
 
I've never sailed a boat with a well so I've not got any experience of them...I could see that one of those wells "behind" the cockpit where a stern deck would be may be less of a problem, but I think on my boat a well would get in the way a bit. However seems like it might be a non-issue from those who have sailed with them.

Perhaps I'm not as fastidious with my string as some...absolutely everything on my boat apart from the genoa halyard is led back...(mainsheet, main halyard, topping lift, kicker, reef 1 tack, reef 1 clew and the same for reef 2, pole up, pole down/tack line, kite halyard, genoa sheets, genoa cars, furler) so it can get quite busy in my cockpit especially after any kite manoeuvre and dropping something down the hole would be very easy.
 
Iain,

my boat has 4 lines led aft each side of the hatch, on the port side a stowage bag by ' Blue ' is very handy but I can't fit one to starboard because of the main compass; so shock horror I have to hitch all the coils up !

Another point about wells; on my boat if sailing any distance the engine is taken out and a fairing plug fitted so the bottom is smooth, drainage by an Elvstrom SuperMax bailer in the plug - so no big hole to lose things through.

There's also a lid on top of the well, so I haven't got many excuses !

Nobody I know would sail with an empty well, ie no plug or engine in it, as the turbulence, drag and noise is surprisingly awful; funnily enough all that goes when the engine leg is in the water, obviously a hydrodynamic effect.

Personally I think wells are the ideal solution for boats up to about 24', after that one requires big heavy engines, which with outboards will be too heavy to lift and stow - meaning not only drag when sailing ( I always say going around in an Anderson 22 with the engine in all the time is like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down ) but also engine corrosion and vulnerability to theft when on the mooring / berth.

I think Dylans' bad experiences with the Slug engine are affecting his judgement, and not for the better - a Centaur with inboard would be ideal for the Scottish leg of the trip but one with an experimental outboard isn't; however it has now turned into a magazine ' interesting project ' with backing and engines etc supplied which is a whole different part of the equation.
 
dylanwinter said:
top of the cockpit floor is where we are measuring it to

I have to say that four adults and a lab would be bloomin bijou

I am still hoping for a centaur... but....



D
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Bloomin bijou is an understatement. As an ex-owner of a Leisure 22 which looks like a similar internal layout, unless Westerly have pulled off some sort of magic trick, the forepeak berths will be unusable by anybody taller than an 8 year old. The 'double' would be called a standard single on land and getting in/out of the quarter berth with require a forceps delivery. 4 adults and a lab would be a recipe for a very unpleasant experience
 
Seajet said:
Iain,

my boat has 4 lines led aft each side of the hatch, on the port side a stowage bag by ' Blue ' is very handy but I can't fit one to starboard because of the main compass; so shock horror I have to hitch all the coils up !

Another point about wells; on my boat if sailing any distance the engine is taken out and a fairing plug fitted so the bottom is smooth, drainage by an Elvstrom SuperMax bailer in the plug - so no big hole to lose things through.

There's also a lid on top of the well, so I haven't got many excuses !

Nobody I know would sail with an empty well, ie no plug or engine in it, as the turbulence, drag and noise is surprisingly awful; funnily enough all that goes when the engine leg is in the water, obviously a hydrodynamic effect.

Personally I think wells are the ideal solution for boats up to about 24', after that one requires big heavy engines, which with outboards will be too heavy to lift and stow - meaning not only drag when sailing ( I always say going around in an Anderson 22 with the engine in all the time is like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down ) but also engine corrosion and vulnerability to theft when on the mooring / berth.

I think Dylans' bad experiences with the Slug engine are affecting his judgement, and not for the better - a Centaur with inboard would be ideal for the Scottish leg of the trip but one with an experimental outboard isn't; however it has now turned into a magazine ' interesting project ' with backing and engines etc supplied which is a whole different part of the equation.
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time will tell -

but I am not sure what is experimental about a high thrust long shaft outboard
 
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My A22 has a good interior for the boat type, but is not as roomy as a Leisure 22 or a Pageant - which is a fair bit roomier than the L22 BTW.

However we've still managed weekends with 4 adults and 3 week cruises with 3 adults, 2 in the forepeak; the berths are actually considerably larger than the Carter 30 I had intermittently - yes I learned that one the hard way !

Whenever looking at any boat now I always lie down on the bunks, the only way to really measure them.

I do think a Centaur will suit Dylan best though, not least as there are probably a lot more low cost examples about, Pageants are quite sought after.
 
I have a Pageant with the MD7A engine which can be unreliable at times (i.e. when you need it most!).

I have a bracket on the transom that takes a 6hp 4 stroke outboard. On a trip around Rattray Head near Peterhead the inboard's impellor disintegrated and I used the outboard for the rest of the journey in a big swell without any problems other than trying to make sure that the prop didn't come out of the water too often.

In more benign conditions the outboard will push her along at near hull speed without any great fuss.

Mike
 
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I have taken four adults on a week-long trip in our Pageant. It's perfectly feasible but you do have to know each other well and be fairly organised with belongings. I find the aft berths quite cosy...

Mike
 
flobbets said:
I have a Pageant with the MD7A engine which can be unreliable at times (i.e. when you need it most!).

I have a bracket on the transom that takes a 6hp 4 stroke outboard. On a trip around Rattray Head near Peterhead the inboard's impellor disintegrated and I used the outboard for the rest of the journey in a big swell without any problems other than trying to make sure that the prop didn't come out of the water too often.

In more benign conditions the outboard will push her along at near hull speed without any great fuss.

Mike
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I have had 6hp on a lifting bracket - just about possible to put it on and take it off

in flat water no probs

it is that coming out of the ater business that bothers me - and the water is often choppiest just leaving and entering harbours

but if the engine is dodgy - then I would certainly do that
 
flobbets said:
I have taken four adults on a week-long trip in our Pageant. It's perfectly feasible but you do have to know each other well and be fairly organised with belongings. I find the aft berths quite cosy...

Mike
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In my heart of hearts I think that it will be too bijou

but I am not closing the door on one until I get to climb inside and have a good think and a lie down
 
flobbets said:
You would be welcome to try ours except that:

a) It's on the West coast of Scotland

b) My son is living on her while studying for his BSc Marine Science!

Mike
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I think it is worth investing some fuel to take a look at the inside of the one near Chichester

and I will also do a little tour of the boatyards with my tie on labels

however the pageant is in the hands of a lawyer who is taking three days to reply to each email

the emails generally tell me why they have not responded sooner, then go on to say why they will not be responding for a few more days yet

D
 
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Dylan I do wonder once you have got used to the extra space, seaworthiness and range of something like a Centaur, whether you would ever go back to Katie L. If I've got this right, you don't actually trailer sail Katie L anywhere, she kinda stays where she is. She is also very smart and quite valuable, and really, a bilge keel centaur is a few feet longer and needs only a smidge more water to float in. It's hardly going to mean the end for your creek crawling efforts.

It just strikes me that by the time you've piled on hundreds of miles looking for "the boat", thrown a grand at unforeseen issues (because I promise you there will be some), had it craned in, totally devalued it with your well, had the inevitable survey and insurance issues, you could just sell Katie L, and get a really, really good Centaur with a new, reliable engine, have an o/b on the transom for insurance, and actually enjoy a safe summer of enjoyable sailing. I admire your approach, but when you are sat in some Scottish harbour in the drizzle with no headlining, no proper electrics, no water tanks, tripping over grumpy people and permanently wet and smelly dogs and wondering what is going to break next, reality may bite.

Buy wise and you will easily get your money back if you really do want to downsize, or you can plan the next stage of KTL, poking around the Channel Islands or somewhere further afield.
 
Iain C said:
Dylan I do wonder once you have got used to the extra space, seaworthiness and range of something like a Centaur, whether you would ever go back to Katie L. If I've got this right, you don't actually trailer sail Katie L anywhere, she kinda stays where she is. She is also very smart and quite valuable, and really, a bilge keel centaur is a few feet longer and needs only a smidge more water to float in. It's hardly going to mean the end for your creek crawling efforts.

It just strikes me that by the time you've piled on hundreds of miles looking for "the boat", thrown a grand at unforeseen issues (because I promise you there will be some), had it craned in, totally devalued it with your well, had the inevitable survey and insurance issues, you could just sell Katie L, and get a really, really good Centaur with a new, reliable engine, have an o/b on the transom for insurance, and actually enjoy a safe summer of enjoyable sailing. I admire your approach, but when you are sat in some Scottish harbour in the drizzle with no headlining, no proper electrics, no water tanks, tripping over grumpy people and permanently wet and smelly dogs and wondering what is going to break next, reality may bite.

Buy wise and you will easily get your money back if you really do want to downsize, or you can plan the next stage of KTL, poking around the Channel Islands or somewhere further afield.
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katie L is perfect for me

she really is....

she has a heads, an outboard, an easy to handle gunter rig, she draws 13 inches, sails like a dream, looks nice and I have the trailer in the garden

I could not sell her

once the family abandon me I will be back alone and a Centaur will be too big, too deep and with an undroppable mast

I have to be able to get under bridges

as for devalueing a £1500 boat but cutting a well in it

trhe most I can knock off is taking her down to scrap value

and two blokes have emailed me offering to buy the boat once I get around to the West Coast

as for stuff breaking.... the big thing that might break is the thumping great inboard ahnd what worries me is that i might buy a decent boat priced high because it has a "good" inboard and have the thing get terminally sick.

as long as the keels stay on and the rudder is okay then everything else can be fixed without too much money

and I will have a spare engine.

as for the atmosphere aboard

my family does not do arguments - never have - just not wired that way

we have, and still do, spend time under canvas in the lake district where it hardly ever rains

I am hoping that my son or daughter will fall in love with the Centaur and decide that they want to keep it - if they don't then it will be fascinating to see how much she is worth at the end of this little adventure.

as for thiousands of miles looking for a boat

so far I have only done a few miles around Chichester harbour after the RAFYC talk on the 10th

the rest has been digits and forumites walking their dogs and taking snaps for me

I have never bought a boat this way before - because the technology has not really existed

and there is no other boat in the Uk that is available in such numbers as the Centaur because there are so many of them in circulation

at the moment there are around 30 on the market

I have to say that since the word Westerly has started appearing on the website the number of lurkers has gone up astonishingly

although subs and DVD sales have not followed

I have been contacted by a very nice man from the Westerly Owners Association who said that he would like to know more with a view to helping me track down the right boat

and a yacht surveryor has offered to put the word out on the surveying forum

The right boat is there.... I know it

just got to find it

meantime is anyone wants more details on that Tollesbury boat

it is being handled by the man behind this email

brokerage@woodrolfe.com
 
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Dylan,

I'm glad to hear you're keeping Katie overall; it's always struck me that while the Liberty's didn't sell in huge numbers to Joe Public, for your purposes she might as well have been a custom designed one-off just for yourself - and you'd have arrived at the same boat !
 
Seajet said:
Dylan,

I'm glad to hear you're keeping Katie overall; it's always struck me that while the Liberty's didn't sell in huge numbers to Joe Public, for your purposes she might as well have been a custom designed one-off just for yourself - and you'd have arrived at the same boat !
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she could not be more perfect for my sort of sailing

and as a freelance I can always bung her on the trailer and get her home without hitting massive transport costs

there are so many wonderful places I have sailed in her that I could never have reached in a Centaur because of the mast and depth restrictions

but you are dead right Ian - I am sure that she will feel pretty pokey after a summer in a bigger yacht
 
Fair dinkum again on the mast...I guess that's the big one, being able to drop that on your own. It's the club crane and some mates on my boat, and a good few hours work and some big heavy things swinging around too. A right PITA.

Perhaps aiming for a bit of a shed with a grotty interior is absolutely the right thing to do...Katie L looks very sorted so it won't be too much of a problem downsizing into something snug and dry!
 
mast raising under way

Iain C said:
Fair dinkum again on the mast...I guess that's the big one, being able to drop that on your own. It's the club crane and some mates on my boat, and a good few hours work and some big heavy things swinging around too. A right PITA.

Perhaps aiming for a bit of a shed with a grotty interior is absolutely the right thing to do...Katie L looks very sorted so it won't be too much of a problem downsizing into something snug and dry!
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Katie L is right up to scratch

no work needs doing

no jobs pending

and here is the gunter in action

 
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