Is self build worthwhile

[ukdiving]

Hi, I know the rules say we shouldnt post the same question on different forums but having posted the following on the PBO forum I had generally a negative response - dont do it!

I was wondering if there would be different advice from the classic boat lovers or is there a consensus against self build?

Question: 'There is very little coverage today in the mags on building your own boat and one could be forgiven for believing it has gone out of fashion. Self build used to be a very common way in to boat ownership but is it so today?

Being in my 50's I have always hankered to have a go and am sure I would find it a satisfying experience but would the end result (assuming I made a good job!) be saleable? How do self builds stand for re sale price compared to the cost of materials? How does cost of build compare to say a relatively new pre-owned factory produced vessel of same size?

I guess the real question is does self build make financial sense? or (apart from the satisfaction) is it a financial lemon and simply better to look in the used columns?

I appreciate that figures and comparisons are going to depend on many variables but I would appreciate any comments form those with experience.

I have been looking at the Selway Fisher plans for the Ailsa 22, a wooden 22 foot trailer sailer. Has anyone experience of building this? Does anyone know what the finished result is like to use?

Any feedback appreciated.'

 

[Mirelle]

I am quite sure that the market value of the finished boat will depend entirely on the quality of work that has gone into her.

I can think of two Vertues on the East coast, both of which were built from scratch by their first owners. Both have since changed hands, more than once, at prices rather above the typical price for a "standard" yard built one, and both are now in long term ownership.

More generally for building from scratch in wood take a look at the website of the American magazine "Woodenboat" - I assume Kim will not mind me mentioning this as "Classic Boat" often gets similar recommendations on their website.

 

[Peterduck]

I'm sure that you have heard the old saw that "fools build for wiser men to buy". I believe that the picture is much more complicated than that. Have a think about thes points:
1. Is there any other way to get the boat that appeals to you other than building it yourself? Many years ago I had a trailer-sailer whose basic structure [hull, deck, cabin, cockpit] was built by a competent builder, while I did the final finishing and fitting out.
2. What level of skill will you be starting the project with? Any errors or mistakes made in the early stages will be the ones which it is hardest to rectify later on. In the previously mentioned trailer-sailer, I learned an awful lot from the chap who built her. I didn't know at the start how much I didn't know.
3. The building site must be at home. The further away it is from home, the more difficult it will be to maintain the momentum. Rent on a site will kill a project before it is finished.
4. Even in the benevolent climate that we have here in Melbourne, a project needs to be covered to protect it from the weather. If the climate is less than benevolent, the builder also needs to be protected.
If you can answer these with confidence, then I'd say go to it, for there are few more satisfying things to achieve than to build a beautiful boat. Choose the design and build for yourself, not for the next owner. He/she will make changes anyway,so do what you want, and you'll love the boat the better for it.
Peter.

 

[dickh]

As peterduck says - the only way to build successfully is under cover at home, with light, power and heating. Value will depend on the quality of your work. If you have all the above - go for it - it'll be worth it. But do not underestimate the time or the cost involved.......

 

[Santana379]

I have a good chum who recently embarked on a self build. (I think he must be fed up with being ordered around on Francis Fletcher).

From the financial point of view, he says whatever you do, don't cost your time!

He is building a Laurent Giles "Joshua Matthew" - a very pretty gaff rigged boat that has been reported on in Classic Boat in the past. She's marine ply, and 21' on deck. She'll be trailerable behind a 4x4, so he can bring her home in the winter, but she is too heavy to be a trailer sailer in the conventional sense. A tricky compromise between seaworthiness and practicality.

The blurb said 300 hours to build - when he 'phoned Laurent Giles office and explained he was a cabinet maker, they said "That'll be 1000 hours then!"

The individual in question is a very talented professional woodworker, and a complete perfectionist. He's also got a full range of professional tools and a large workshop. I expect his boat will be superbly built and finished, but certainly would not show a profit on full cost were he to sell her.

Outright purchase of a boat in very good condition was not an option, but he did consider renovating a wreck, which would probably have had a similar cashflow profile. Personally I would've liked to have seen him do that, but couldn't argue with his logic that it would cost as much, or more, and in the end you'd still have an old boat with all its inherent problems. (Why am I posting that on this forum??!!)

In terms of value, Mirelle makes a good point about the two Vertues, however they are Vertues, and therefore seriously "blue chip". I would have thought that lighter construction, and particularly marine ply, craft, without a strong reputation in the market, might not enjoy the same depreciation curve.

None-the-less, the fact you're looking at self build must mean that want to, and believe that you can make a good a job of it. To quote someone who (for reasons beyond my understanding) gets a mixed press over on ITV, but who I consider an inspiration, a donf! Or, to quote Del Boy, see my signature below!

The reference to a wreck reminds me of a very charming college friend with a very tatty Austin Healey. I saw him many years later, still with the same car in the same condition. "You didn't ever get round to renovating it then?" said I. "Oh yes" said he, "right up to concours, but I've used her everyday since"! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Same chap doesn't believe airbags are the way forward, and reckons the best way to improve road safety would be fit all cars with a large spike protruding from the steering wheel boss - his theory is that everyone would drive more carefully! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[fishermantwo]

Boat building is certainly satisfying. There are people who find this better than actually sailing. As soon as they finish one project they are thinking about the next. Resale is normally much lower than a normal production vessel and may take time to actually sell, people like to stick with familiar types. Plywood boats in particular are not popular with people who consider fibreglass the norm now.
Watch Ebay for awhile and see how the boats there sell. People who need to sell seem to go this route and its a good indicator of market values. Just recently a Waarship 24 footer sold locally for just over a 1000 dollars on Ebay. I have just paid 4500 dollars for a 26 foot quarter tonner with a cedar ply hull, fibreglass sandwich deck, outboard, 5 sails etc. from a dealer. Thats about the cost of materials for the hull only. I know it will never have the same value as a smilar sized glass boat but that does not concern me. At your age, and you sound the same age as me, building a boat over 20 foot is going to take a lot of effort, its a big job.

 

[ongolo]

I have built a 70'LOA Steel Schooner, I am 60 now and at my age I would not do it again, but I wish I had startewd when I was 25 years old.

As far as buying, I wanted to buy, but could not find anything close I was looking for, so I did not only build it, I also desinged it completely.

An acquaintance who is a surveyor of comercial boats with the nickname "replace the plate", bought a 36' steel boat 23 years old. The boat has been to South America and back a few times. He was assured by the owner that inside everything is epoxied. However, when he took the boat out and sandblasted it, holes were shot through at 14 different places. He now removed the whole interior and then he will replace plating etc. The jobe will take probably 3 years and then he still has a not so good boat. Nothing in comparison what I have built, so everybody says. So much for buying.

Another had a 38' Fisher type Motor Sailer built in Empangeni an South africa and moved it 2600km across Africa, The stem at the bow is a 40mm Square tubing, it will rust from the inside and eventually, the plating at the bow will likely split open and the thing sink within minutes. So much for buying.

My advise is this, if you want a boat and can remotely find what you are looking for, rather buy, if you cannot, like it was in my case, you have to built.

If on the other hand, the building gives you satisfaction, then you should build.

One thing though, no matter how big or small, it will cost you more than you think. Besides the years, it may cost you a relationship as well, see what your wife thinks about it.

But as I type this, I sit in my boat, and I know, there is not another as practical as mine, including workshop with lathe, cargo holds and pilot house. But it took a big chunk out of my life. It was interesting, I learned a lot although I had all the skills to start off with.

And yes, a mistake early on, and you will pay dearly later. I dropped and bent frame 16 of 24. I thought I could get it straight, but not quite, and there today is a bump in the roof of the pilot house.

regards ongolo

 

[chippie]

Well said Ongolo,
If you had started at age 25 do you think you would be finished yet? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[DaveNY]

It is easy to give examples of other not-so-good boats but the fact of the matter is that there are more good boats out there than bad ones, and I still think, unless you really, really want and need to build your own boat, well, I still think that it's better to buy in the long run. Those who bought duff boats probably didn't do enough checks on the vessel before purchase. And again, there are far more success stories than horror stories out there.
I once considered building my own boat but given that I had two young children at the time and more importantly, given that I actually wanted to get out and sail as soon as possible, I instead bought. And I haven't looked back. I've saved both time and money and have actually managed to get in thousands of nautical miles of sailing to pot! Had I built my own, I'd probably still be building it!
Ongolo, how does your boat sail? It's large. How much sail do you use?
Regards
Dave

 

[ongolo]

Chippie, I have often thought about that point. When I was 30 I could take a Landrover engine out and strip it down to the block in oneandahalf hour, to day I probable take two days. But........

When I was young, there were woman, a interesting job, Africa had to be discovered, guns, diving, motorcycles and more. I would simply not have had the stamina to carry on, neither would I have had the money. And this is what most young people are facing.

So I think, starting to young is not good, and starting too old it never gets finished.

And to start with a friend or a group of friends will never ever work, that I have also seen.

How it sails, you can read hopefully in PBO, I am not prepared to give you a biased opinion. I have a retired professional journalist coming on the 14th of this month, and that should produce an unbiased article. Also about the numbers, according to which it is a racer/freighter.


I desided that it would be handled like a bristol channel pilot schooner that had a pilot and an apprentice on board. After the pilot boarded the ship, the apprentice was able to handle the boat alone.

I will however, add 220V capstan winches of own design, so that a kid can raise the sails. So far I am fit, I can haul peak and throat halyard same time, to a point.

Yes, you are right about buying if you dont go to extreme parts of the world.

Friends of mine who lived all together 22 years on boats, had last a 45'Roberts GRP. They always wanted a steel boat. Then 50 miles of Falklands they were rolled by a huge wave, lost the mast, the chain plates were ripped out and there were gaping holes in the hull. That did it. They went back to UK, repaired the boat, sold it and came to Cape Town to built a 50' Dix designed Houtbay. In fact there was a two part series in PBO LIVING A DREAM or something.

Then I know one case where a boat was built professionally by a yard in Port Elizabeth. The yard was busy going bankrupt and employed any wwelder who could say "welding rod". Result money was paid on quantity surveyors progress report.
Boat was finished, and some welds x-rayed after delivery, then almost all critical welding seams were ground open and re-welded resulting in distortion of the hull. Lots of money lost and low quality boat.

Wanting a boat strong enough for the southern ocean and Antarctica, I had to do it myself. That is my story.

Regards Ongolo

 

[DaveNY]

Antarctica and the Southern Oceans. You're brave. What's it like down there. I've read alot about sailing in the 40's but only read. Ha ha! We tend to stick to our neck of the world.
How has your boat fared in such conditions? I look forward to reading about your boat in PBO. People like you who not only build their own boats but also sail in regions of the world which many people avoid makes for interesting reading.

 

[PeterStone]

Would you consider fitting out from a bare hull? It's the route I took with my second boat and I loved nearly every minute. Low points were when I would look around and think it would 'never' be finished. The bare hull idea is attractive because it's such a critical part to get right, yet can be bought relatively cheaply - say 10% of the finished cost of the boat.

I built this boat in my garden, including making a deck moulding out of grp and it took me 4 years but that's through working on a piecemeal basis. Even so, I don't think you should underestimate the amount of time it takes. Bit like a government contract - think of a figure then double it.

The plus points are numerous. The main ones being that you can specify exactly what you want from scratch - none of the compromises with quality that most manufacturers are faced with when producing a boat they actually need to sell at a competitive price.

You will know exactly where everything is and how it works and no job will ever be beyond you after that.

All essential items like seacocks can be placed where you can actually reach them without being a contortionist.

Downsides are also numerous unfortunately and I agree with all the negative comments that have been posted. When you think of the time spent in the build it's a temptation to tick off, mentally, 2 years for the hull, a year for the deck, 2 years for the fit out etc. What you don't envisage is the sheer waste of time and effort driving round half of the country for some minor part you need in a burning hurry, because, without it, you might not be able to do the work you had planned for the weekend!

I feel a bit of an interloper coming onto the classic boat forum but I feel that some of the same principles apply to both grp and wooden boat building.

 

[daveyjones]

In my view there are two principal reasons for the lack of self-building; as living standards have gone up, boats are relatively cheaper, so there isn't the necessity to build, especially with the "buy now pay for the rest of your life" credit culture we have. Secondly, at least in the UK, we are changing from a manufacturing to a service economy, and the old skills are being lost as the hand workers die off. If your career involves tapping a keyboard all day, you are unlikely to want to get your hands dirty, unless it's a bit ot therapeutic DIY to keep the missis happy. This is not the same as spending years on a project.
Having said that, here in Kent there have always been several projects on the go in local yards, but I wouldn't know what is happening in back yards and garages.
I spent three years restoring a wooden gaffer in the 80's, and am about to start on a 40ft Colin Archer in ferro, which I think will take 7 years. I am 52 this year, so if I finish before I'm 60 that will be ok. Although I like boatbuilding and feel happier putting to sea in a boat where I know every nut and bolt, I would also consider renovating an old boat. However, I haven't , after years searching, found a suitable vessel. A second-hand Colin Archer would be at least £120,000. To have one built probably twice that at least, completely out of the question. My budget for a self-build is £40,000- 50,000 (not counting labour of course). I specifically want a ferro boat, for resons which are not relevant here, and I discount a second-hand hull because of the difficulty of surveying it.

It really depends on the kind of person you are; of course you will lose money on it, but can you put a price on pride of achievement? If you know "the price of everything and the value of nothing" you shouldn't go sailing anyway. Despite a pretence of reason, and weighing up the arguments carefully, our decisions are always emotional, but what would be the alternative to building a boat at our age? Buy a flat screen TV, grow a beer gut, and spend the rest of your life watching other people do things? For me the real horror would be to lie on my deathbed thinking, "if only I'd done it when I had the chance".

 

[Mirelle]

Another thought

Whilst I pretty much agree with the above, I think that another factor may be that the supply of tired old wooden boats needing sorting out may have absorbed energies that might once have gone into building new.

A glance around the Smack Dock at Brightlingsea, say, will show that there is a very high level of amateur boat building, with abundant enthusiasm, and excellent technical skills, going on, only it is boat rebuilding!

 

[paulbrooks]

Just finishing my self build - a Golant Gaffer, 19ft gaff cruiser. Quite a few have been built in 2 to 3 years, but mine has taken the best part of 7 (family, work etc get in the way...). My advice is only do it if you love the design and want the pleasure of building something yourself. At midnight in a cold garage, you need to like the look of what you're building to want to carry on.

Unless you have access to a boat scrapyard and time on your hands, it is neither a cheap nor quick way of getting on the water.

On the other hand the satisfaction of having done it yourself can't be bettered.

Time wise, allow 1hr for every kg of displacement for a basic finish. More if you want to varnish everything / turn it into a spot of cabinet making. The hull tends to be quite quick. Most of the time is spent fitting the cabin, deck etc.

Contact me if you want details of the design - very well thought out and pretty (IMHO).

Regards